1-3-24 LIVE Video Discussion: "Fabricator Skills Test Build"

Fireball Videos
22

What I don’t like about this marketing strategy is that all you seem to have proved is that any old welding table and a hydraulic press are the tools needed to fabricate this stuff into spec. Someone could use an HF welding table and press to make the same thing within spec. It undermines the entire marketing strategy.

The tables are nice, yeah. Beautiful in fact. But the best table in the market just isn’t necessary. I would market them as the best in the business, that’s a statement you can stand behind.

23

In your tests on the other shops you specified that they could not have a fixture table so you should have used the same rule for yourself and not used your fixture table. Fair is fair, use the same requirements for yourself as you used for the outside shops.

24

Hi Jason, excellent instructional! I’m curious why you don’t tack weld your joints first? I thought that was supposed to help stop twisting/warping…Thanks!

25

It’s not that as important when its clamped securely in the fixture.

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26

When you were trying to tweak the legs opposite legs closer together using a bar clamp, you were just twisting the sides of the square in torsion, and square mild steel tubing makes a fairly decent torsion spring for small deflections…exploited in most receiver style trailer hitches. If you do manage to get the legs to move, then you have twisted the side of the square, and are trading one problem for a different one.

What I would have tried was breaking out the O-A torch, and heating a spot about the size of a dime in the middle of the inner leg weld to red-tending toward orange heat, and then letting it cool, then check the leg for orthoginality. If I overshoot, heat a smaller spot, or to a lower temp on the opposite side.

I have used this technique to align trailer axles.

28

Hi Jason, what would you use in place of the “Towers” if you didn’t have them right away?
Also if I didn’t have a press I would I keep the leg straight from the beginning?

29

I would use a combination of fence blocks and tooth blocks with risers to replace the 4 towers. The tee joint would need to be pre bent before welding. This can be tricky to get correct the first time. It might take a few tries to get it right.

30

Thank you for the prompt reply!

31

Im a little disappointed that you made the same mistake on purpose on all 8 pieces.
Would have been nice to see half of them done right.

32

If you have a thousand dollar table and a thousand dollars worth of fixtures - you too can make a “good piece”.

How about minimal fixturing with a decent table? Like your builders used.

Just my 2 cents.

33

Hey :wave: Jason,
Corey from Michigan! Hey, so I’ve been following this series this past year of welders tests. From the first set of 3 to this latest set of 3. I’ve also watched this video live stream through and through. First of I want to say thank you for the video! I seriously have learned a ton! You taking the time to do this project is much appreciated! I realize this video was to prove a point regarding fixture tables! I also am quite surprised at the outcome of this project as I know you were as well! I fully expected the project to be “perfect” the first time through without having any unintentional problems!

But here’s the thing…

Your character and “Excellence” is key! I see the scrutiny you’ve gotten this last year plus when you began getting into the table market! I feel the community has almost turned against you. I get that they are expensive but… I’ve been a supporter of your innovation these last five years since getting back into metal working and really enjoying learning all over again. I didn’t have a fixture table in the beginning years, and it was a struggle with some projects. I couldn’t wait to get it fixed your table. And I was blessed to be able to get one!

Since having a fixture table, I’ve completed a handful of projects and still ran into some of the same issues that your live feed video show! I actually was quite frustrated in the past😂! But what I learned and you taking the time to do this live video was that we are human, and even though we can have the best of the best tools & knowledge, things can still happen! I really enjoyed watching your character in this, because it just proves that even someone of yourself who I would consider as a top professional still had some of the same issues that I’ve had in the past! But it’s how we deal with them and correct them right? So anyways, man, thanks so much for taking the time to do this because it taught me a lot!

I appreciate your honesty and character Jason!!! Blessings to you and Fireball Tool!!! :facepunch:

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34

Setting up one of your mainly used hold down clamps with a permanent hookup up grounding cable and a welding lead connections would ensure that you have a more solid ground and prevent arching between the work piece. Keeping a regular ground clamp near by with the same setup is needed for the time that you can not use that hold down clamp will let go back to a “normal setup”.
A 3/8" hole in the top of the spine on the adjustable C clamp setup, an eyelet crimp on the grounding cable, along with a 4"-6" piece of shrink tube to give your ground cable some stress relief for the weight of the grounding cable.
Absolutely enjoyed this video and watched every second of it thank you and keep up the good work

35

After reading all the current comments and checking out the Fireball website. I’m sure Jason wheels are turning in how do this better. To do what he has already done with this project has already taken realistically 50x (probably more) the time we have viewing the video and making comments as he does planning, prepping, doing, editing, ect all in the same project. That being said these videos are priceless in the educational details and I truly hope that Jason is able to keep his efforts up to the level that he has already set for himself. Excellent job!!

Hopefully I can spark some ideas for him here. Your fabrication test here could very easily become a standard skills certification for the American Welding Society. I’m not sure what that all entails to add a certificate to their standards, but it would be awesome to hear or put that certificate on a resume. It proves you have the skills of paying attention to details, reading a spec sheet, and either the shear raw human skills of doing the work or at least the equipment to take the human errors out. I’m going to call it Table F1.1 in my own mind lol. Can you produce it? Going deeper down the rabbit hole, building this “Standard” could be taking unlimited add ons of weld processes, limited weld joints, different materials, destruction testing, X ray, ect.

As far as ways to further showcase working your way up from newbie to pro with a full fixture table. I think breaking it down in the time vs money graph would show the steps best. Starting a $250 setup of equipment and the amount of time it takes to produce the table (example being a used setup of equipment or low quality low price brand of new equipment) also how to scale up the size of projects with the same equipment setup (example of building a 20’ handrail for a flat sidewalk or a 12’ gate or continuous fence out of used/salvage materials something not quite straight vs new materials)

Stepping up by adding another zero $2500 setup of equipment. Showing different growing pains like start worrying about housing your setup the space it takes, keeping an inventory, time and material spend salvaging old materials (anyone who has reached this level of equipment has something of a bone yard or pile of scrap) but a $2500 setup of equipment can save you a lot of time building your table or fence. This still doesn’t cover the dollar amount of equipment that Jason used in his video, but it gets you close to pricing of the table with no fixtures. Is it worth it yet at this price point?

Then step up to $25k this realistically is what he used for equipment in his video (table, fixtures, shims, press, bandsaw, belt sander, grinder, welder with tank and wire, helmet, heavy-duty leads and extension cord, square footage to fit it all in) how fast can projects be built? Obviously your not spending $25k for a $500 project because the projects built previously pay for the that amount of equipment. He can hire a less skilled worker or two and turn them loose in that setup and produce the project, so his time is basically reduced to zero hands on with a high quality product. However there’s a lot of other new variables that can cause you to lose money instead of making it. Such as insurance, keeping enough projects in front of these workers to pay for it, billing, bidding, etc

Going to $250k is simply more of the same at the $25k. Hopefully it is scaled up enough for the ower to be doing more of the parts that he enjoys and hiring the rest out.

This is a ridiculous long post, but I feel like it addresses the point that Jason is trying to get across. Which is if you’re interested in going with the route of being a fabricator it takes time and money. So invest in yourself, purchase equipment to improve where your skill lacks, plan and prep for the problems that you can forsee, QC yourself to catch the things that you didn’t foresee, and take pride in your work

Keep up the good work Jason! Hopefully I sparked some more ideas for you

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36

Thank you all guys and thanks to the Jason team for giving us such interesting information. Luckily enough, some time ago I was involved in such an order as a customer, whereas the fabricator had to build a metal frame of similar dimensions Jason used in his build. It was cold rolled steel frame with size approx 20x30x40 inches. While I didn’t specify any tolerances and provided the size of each part (frame), I gave a 2d and 3d view of each part. From my experience later, the project had literally maybe up to 1/10 inch real tolerance in real life, but I gave my trust to the fabricator. What I received after, was quite good build frame with weld joints (this didn’t matter), however the fabricator said that I should have specified the tolerances for at least 1/2 of tape measure increment (± tape measure increment), so in his case it was like 1/32. He also corrected my drawings and used 45 degree cuts on the upper pars of the box and used straight joint on the wall sections of the box, which made his job easier.

Looking back to this experience as a customer, and seeing these videos, I noticed a key difference between the setup he used as well as a set of equipment. It was a fully functioning machine shop with 2 lathes, 2 milling machines (1 universal and 1 horizontal milling machine), a set of vertical drills, 2 grinders, a MIG welder and most importantly a simple welding table of maybe 1/4 inch thick plate with equally spaced holes. While the table wasn’t too precise, I believe the main contribution to his results was machining he was used for and ability to identify the measure inconsistencies as well as sizes by eye, because of large experience with the different equipment.

So, in overall, I see the main result of the experiment is not the presence of the welding equipment, but being used to tolerances and precise equipment, because the most precise job in the shop would be defined by the most precise tool in the shop. If the person is used to precision grade surface grinders, for instance, this person can make the frame up to .001 precision, because of high machining standards. If the person has a manual milling machine, it makes the most likely precision to be .05 or like such, and we can continue this up to a shop that has a welding machine and no precise machines like lathes, mills or even the shapers. I hope this may help and give an idea of what is not accounted for in the experiments done on the channel.

Best regards

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37

You are missing the entire point

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38

Uh, no one is going to surface grind that frame to get to a 1 thousandth tolerance, or mill it for .050" tolerance, so those tools have no bearing on the accuracy a welder can achieve, even if they’re in his shop. Welding tools, skill, and attention are the only things that are going to effect the outcome.

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39

Call me late to the party.

  1. I’m not sure how intentional it was to have some of the bevel cut pieces be a little long but careful attention to the pieces meeting THEIR specs BEFORE WELDING would seem a good idea.
  2. Make it a deliberate decision: What holds the assembly dimensions, The parts or the fixture? Small negotiable gaps seem to be the order of the day.
  3. I think it quite possible that tacking the parts (just for geometry, as little heat as possible) and removing them from the fixture (keeps spatter off the table and fixture blocks) for full welding would make an interesting comparison (and easier weld access!).
  4. The reason for a 20 and a 20 1/4 side? So we can see the need to keep the sub-assemblies straight. You almost welded two consecutive “Ts” of the same length. LOL!
  5. That table NOT ROCKING on 4 LEGS was beautiful! That’s what you get for setting the ends of the legs against stops rather than against the bevel cut tubes. The tiny gaps between the legs and bevel tubes get buried in weld. But any gap can be an invitation for the solidifying, contracting filler to move (or simply stress) the parts. Tack them and they won’t move.
  6. Placing shims under the tubes to lift them off the table: This turns the locating features (the underside of the tube) into locating targets (just the area supported by the shim). Either way, full surfaces or targets, the places touched by the fixture table and blocks become very important. No spatter, No burrs, No rust, No etc. With GD&T those targets can be called out on the drawings indicating where to put the shims and where cleanliness is particularly important. But you’re also giving the wrong thickness shim a chance to sneak onto the table and under a tube…
  7. Using squares and straightedges in the rough? What plane are ALL THE LEGS SUPPOSED TO BE PERPENDICULAR TO? Having each leg perpendicular to its bevel tube doesn’t address the assembly spec that the 4 legs are a) perpendicular to the “table top” and b) parallel to each other. (Actually the print doesn’t do a very good job of defining this. It kind of glosses over which is most important and assumes one is equal to the other. We might want all legs parallel more than each leg perpendicular, but then perpendicular to what?)
    It’s getting late, and I haven’t even gotten to how we’ll define “flatness”.
    Beautiful work Jason!
40

All too true. Drop it on one leg or corner and the 0.001 (or maybe even the 0.05) will be toast.

41

And also try to get at least one repeat gravy job to pay the bills while you buy more tools!

42

I love watching this video
as you slowly start to lose your mind with happy frustration, but this is no joke. We go through this and we do it to get shit right I love your table. It’s the best thing I’ve ever seen. I have one question though that cracks me up every time I watch this video, your ground clamp don’t you have a designated area at the bottom of one of the legs that just leave it there and forget about it ,just a thought
thanks, Mikey t