Close to investing in one of your 4.5 x 8.5 tables for multiple purposes (welding, woodworking assembly table, extremely flat reference surface). Looks awesome, and I’ve enjoyed your YouTube videos over the years. Two things make me nervous: the poor shipping ‘crate’/coverings that I’ve seen (made a separate question-thread about that) and recourse for table defects or out-of-advertised-tolerance flatness. This thread is about that second concern where I was hoping someone could speak-to these questions:
What does your QC process consist-of when you receive the tables from Taiwan.? How do you verify your target tolerances were met before shipping tables to customers?
Is your targeted/advertised tolerance still +/- 0.0025 Inches over 2ft. Or is it 0.002in over 2ft? Heard both in your videos. If it’s +/- 0.0025in, then that means it’ll be worst-case:
0.005in * (8.5ft/2ft) = 0.005in*4.25 = 0.02125in deviation worst-case over the length of the table.
0.005in * (4.5ft/2ft) = 0.005in * 2.25 = 0.01125in deviation worst-case over the width of the table.
0.005in * (115.4123in/24in) = 0.005in * 4.8088 = 0.02404 deviation worst-case over the diagonal.
That’s between 1/64in (about 16 thou) and 1/32in (about 31 thou) over more than 9.5 ft. Those are amazing tolerances for a cast iron surface that big and part of the reason I’m considering buying it. Are these tolerances guaranteed? In other words, will you stand behind your claim and take the table back on your dime (including shipping) if it’s shown to not meet that tolerance when it arrives? Are you that confident in your QC process? I plan to have a professional metrology company perform a surface plate measurement/calibration on the table, much like is done on granite surface plates to certify them for professional use. I’ll film it and post the results.
If you can confirm and guarantee your tolerances here in the forum publicly (and that you’ll refund or replace the table including return shipping), I’ll buy the table. If you can’t, I probably won’t. If I had the option to measure it before buying it, I’d drive up to Washington and do that. In CA.
Thanks for the read. Again really enjoy your YouTube videos and congrats on the company’s success.
Aside from your question about the QC process, I would wonder about the choice of legs & how you would propose to maintain flatness over time. A surface plate typically has a well defined means of support so that its flatness can be maintained. I would imagine a surface plate the size of the table you’re considering would have a serious frame and support structure. They don’t just bolt legs to the corners and expect it to stay flat. I would expect any reputable metrologist would give similar but much louder commentary.
In my case with the smaller 30x60 table I got the fixed legs with casters so that I could move it around easily. My floor is obviously not reference surface flat so any time I move it I’m subjecting the table to twisting forces. Additionally, the casters will contribute some deflection. To maintain reference surface flatness I would need to go through a somewhat lengthy process to adjust the legs every time I move the table which is just plain silly, so doesn’t get done. It is an amazing table and I do take care of it so it will provide me with a lifetime’s service, but I don’t expect it to be a surface plate.
Larry thanks for the reply. Yes I’d be ordering fixed legs and once I have it set up would not be moving it.
Granite surface plate comparison was only mentioned as per the setup process i’ve seen used at work on a large 4ftx8ft plate where they level the base (yes specific base with the big ones) and then again with the plate on it. Takes a while. Then they measure out the top and verify tolerances. In their kit they had multiple machinist levels, very expensive long straight edges, and a nifty laser grid system of some kind.
I’m not going to be using a fixture table like a granite surface plate, but I do want to at least replicate what Jason is selling in his videos as to the table flatness when he used the giant straightedge (super expensive and don’t have) and feeler gauges. I can have a local pro do something similar for a few hundred dollars using better tools than I have.
Once it’s dialed in and in a fixed position, it shouldn’t move much.
I would guess little to no QC from experience.
however they go above and beyond to fix issues
including shipping replacement tables at their expense. (two actually in my case)
So I would recommend the tables, I’m happy overall I bought fireball, the tables are an amazing addition to our work flow. (not hobby, real time is money work)
if you need the accuracy listed in your question your looking at the wrong product / manufacture and price point.
The bore on the holes varies enough from one to another that 0.0025 is not achievable from hole to hole let alone the length of table.
Flatness is as good as I can measure and or would need for work we do.
I highly doubt the table would meet the spec listed, but if you need that, again wrong choice.
For the price they are great compared to others in same price group, and my experience with them as a company has been great in the end.
(you may have issues, or will have issues, but they go above to fix, would be better if they were proactive rather than reactive)
overall table should meet your requirement of “welding, woodworking assembly table, extremely flat reference surface”
but doubt will meet spec listed after that, a spec of dust can be 0.0039 inches
Thanks for the reply. I was surprised at the flatness claim, but the owner of the company made the claim on his own YouTube video, not me. I’ll link the videos if anyone is interested below. I don’t need that flatness, no, but if the table is that flat, then that means it’s definitely flatter than I can make a carefully constructed mdf torsion box ( to within a playing card end to end or better). I’m mainly concerned with overall flatness end-to-end so that there’s no bows or sags that I can measure or see. The flatness that Jason/Owner was claiming would more than guarantee that. Then I could get rid of my existing large torsion box assembly table and just use this as a considerable upgrade, plus metalworking/welding/durability, etc. It would be a luxury, not a practical purchase.
Video that Jason/Owner did measuring different companies’ welding table flatness using his 14 foot precision straight edge and shims/feeler-gauges. https://youtu.be/bJVZjhRTEfs?si=5Ti9Rg6Bb_Oc5B-z
Timestamps and quotes
1:00 "“I’m gonna be doing this (measuring the different welding tables that he was testing from Siegmund, Weldsale, etc.) with this precision 14-foot straightedge that I call ‘The Heartbreaker.’ It’s gonna allow me to find all the surface imperfections on all the tables.”
1:10 "Aerospace fabrication is the most demanding on these fixture-table manufacturers, and their requirements state that they must have a welding table that’s plus or minus two & a half thousandths of an inch over 24 inches. So I will be using this as the standard, and we’ll see what tables meet this requirement, and I will give it a pass or fail based on these parameters. "
Video of Jason/Owner testing his own table with the same 14 foot precision straightedge where he is purporting that his table is better than 0.002 in 2ft. https://youtu.be/JAcSNL1T3OA?si=j5N0oaRbKW13YcDI
Timestamps & quotes
20:00 “Remember, I’m trying for aerospace tolerance, which is +/- 0.002inch in 2 feet.”
20:13 " I’m gonna run this test exactly the way I did in the table review (of different manufacturer’s welding tables) and then we can compare it to the others that I tested earlier."
20:20 “Here’s a 0.002 Inch shim, this cannot slip underneath the straightedge.”
20:38 “So I could not get a 0.002 shim underneath there [his 14 foot precision straightedge]”
6:45 “So for comparison, for the requirements for Aerospace in a 2 foot long straight edge or a 2 by 2 square, 2 thousandths of an inch flatness; and we’re doing 2 thousandths of an inch over 9 feet. That is insane. (he means on the diagonal with his super expensive precision 14 foot straightedge he couldn’t get a 2 thou shim underneath, is what he is purporting)”
So Eti, all I’m asking is for the owner of the company to back up what he told the world from his own mouth on his own youtube videos about his own table. Actually, I’m asking for less, just +/- 0.0025 in 2 ft. Not over the whole table. Either he has a one-off better, more expensive table than that which he’s sending to customers, or all of them will have similar tolerances being milled on that same big gantry mill.
Either what he said and filmed was correct, or it wasn’t.
Either he’s BS’ing us…or he isn’t. If he isn’t, I’m going to buy the table for sure. Simple as that.
All of are tables are QCed here in the states with a CMM machine and ensure they fall within the aerospace levels tolerances Jason laid out in his video of +/-0.0025. The thing to remember at the end of the day is you are dealing with a solid piece of cast iron and it is still metal that can have deflection. The same table that we used in the video we have floated one end and only seen a maximum deflection of 0.050". The tolerance you listed in your initial post, you can not just take the maximum tolerance and multiply it by the distance traveled. Almost all tables run on a CNC machine with be within 1-2 thou tolerance. The reasons you see deviations in materials after machining is due to materials used. For example the Sigmund 1200x600 table that we have in the shop right now to compare against the Fireball tables has a .030" crown in the table that even adjusting the legs we cant get out this is because those tables are 1/4" plate steal and probably warped during their nitriding process. Using cast iron, the material is so stable you will never see a change from when it is initially machined. Like any good tool a fixture table needs to be leveled and calibrated if you want the advertised tolerances. But like @LarryFahnoe said the moving the table around has its drawbacks but for most applications we find the table to be good enough for what we are doing. The same table that we made our video about we use in the shop everyday and when we need it to we can take the time and calibrate it back within that 0.002" over the whole table. Also MDF has a tolerance of +/-0.008" over two feet. I ran into an issue with a couple sheets I was using last week for our sci-fi office build project. Its good but not as flat as everyone seems to think. Hope this answers your questions. Feel free to reach out to us with any other questions.
Appreciate the info and confirmations. This quote helped me, “[quote=“Fireball_Wyatt, post:6, topic:2617”]
The same table that we made our video about we use in the shop everyday and when we need it to we can take the time and calibrate it back within that 0.002” over the whole table.
[/quote]
Totally understand warping after-the-fact (worse on steel and much better on cast iron) and natural flex/deflection that occurs on your tables when it’s flexed/twisted with various legs floating. The tolerances I was describing as ‘worst-case’ over the whole table was already assuming that the table was perfectly calibrated. And those tolerances were just a mathematical extension of the worst-case peak to valley deviation of this spec itself, +/-0.0025inches in 2ft. Which is the same thing as saying that all points on the table surface in a 2ft area must always fall in between two imaginary parallel planes that are 0.005inches apart. If you extend that to a worst case of overall flatness over say the length of 8.5 ft, you’d get 0.02125 inch deviation. Here’s a visual I found online and modified:
At any rate, you’re saying that the table in your shop can be calibrated to measure flat within 0.002 Inches over the whole table. Are you also saying that the table I would receive (if ordered) can achieve that same overall flatness once calibrated? No 2-thou shims anywhere under a precision straightedge, even one longer than the diagonal of the table like yours?
So if Jason has already stated what you are looking for on Youtube for the world to see, what’s with the weird insistency that he repeats it here? I since something a little out of kilter here?
Incredulity on having something that big that flat outside of a large granite plate…and the fact that it’s $11k and 3000 lbs means it’s a nontrivial matter to return. Plus they never said their flatness tolerance is guaranteed and I want a confirmation before dropping the $. Since they made a forum and encouraged people to ask questions, I did. Almost done, as Wyatt got me most of the way there.
Curios, what are you making that requires that tight a tolerance? Nothing I make needs to be that straight but I’m no professional and my lively hood doesn’t depend on it either…
There is no difference between the table we use in the shop and the table you will buy except you will have the newer style of legs. Like I said we carefully QC our tables when they arrive off the boat. Also where about in California are you located?
Nothing I do needs those tolerances right now. For now my shop is a hobby that keeps me sane. Maybe when I retire… Just really enjoy precision and overbuilding things. I enjoy the tools themselves as much or more than what I can make with them, if that makes sense.
Hey Thought I’d chime in. Absolutely if you’re not happy with the table will gladly take it back. On that note we have some customers like space x and others that require a flat surface to work off of. We have had no complaints only happy clients.
Also has any other fixture table companies that measured there table on camera? Just something to think about.
Jason/Wyatt, thanks for the time & info/assurances. Just purchased the 8.5ft x 4.5ft table with the fixed-legs option.
Also thanks again Larry/Eti/Gringo for your replies.
Jason as to your question “has any other fixture table companies that measured there table on camera?”…nope, not aware of any, and that’s one of the big reasons I purchased yours , along with your and your team’s replies here to back up your YouTube sales pitches.
Once I have the table professionally leveled/calibrated and measured-out to verify the tolerances, I’ll order a fixture kit (the first one that comes with that cart, kit4 I think it’s called).
Will post some delivery and set-up pics for the forum.
Did have a few questions about shipping/unloading and the dimensional footprints of the table-legs (centerpoints of table leg feet relative to one another and edges of the table so I can x-off the fixed floor location), but I’ll follow up with customer service for those.
Now if only I can sneak this thing into the shop while my wife’s at work…
Congratulations, thats pretty exciting. As for getting the table calibrated, I’d just use a precision level. If you have one great. If you don’t have one they can be purchased pretty reasonably on eBay. I feel comfortable you can do it yourself. I made a video on how to do it last year.
Thank you, I will give it a shot. When I set it up for the first time though, gonna have a friend I met through work and his crew help set it up and verify the tolerances. He works for a company that installs, levels, and calibrates/measures large granite surface plates on custom bases for tool-rooms, manufacturing facilities, labs, etc, so he has all the right tools already. Told him some folks were getting an overall flatness to within 2 thou on your tables with straightedges and feeler gauges; he told me that 2 thou is the target spec on a grade B 4ft x 8ft granite surface plate for overall flatness, so he’s excited to measure it. Will post the results.
.0002 in 10" If you want to learn just how much your concrete floor moves under your table when you walk on it and how much the table moves just from your body heat when standing next to it just get one of these. i finally gave up well after dark and put the thing away for good when one spot in the corner of the table still was .0004 out of level. Good enough right?
, along with your and your team’s replies here to back up your YouTube sales pitches.
