Why the drill template doesn't align at 90 degrees

[mobilehomey]

Jason-

While I agree with the first paragraph, the second is just plain wrong. While I’m sure someone out there thinks that this is a plug and play situation, and doesn’t need to verify accuracy, it’s not me. Perfect example; you yourself stated in the video about this template that the intent was to give people a way to make their own version at home, “And create perfectly centered holes, and what I really mean is that WE’RE GOING TO GET AS WE POSSIBLY CAN, ON THE DIY BUDGET “. Direct quote, no more, no less. Obviously, it’s not going to be perfect, BUT, as has been said before by more than one person, the holes in the template are within .001” ; I’d say that’s great, seriously, absolutely acceptable, the template is exactly what you said.

It’s the location method that is lacking, it’s that simple. When I get finished with my table top, I’ll post the pictures, and steps taken to make it, in order. Once I realized that the issue was the lack of a way to consistently and accurately reposition the template, I.E., no proper locating pins, and acquired some precision ground rod, it became monumentally easier to maintain a proper hole pattern. I think that 6 friggin bucks of steel bar definitely qualifies as “on the DIY budget”, wouldn’t you think?

As far as surface flatness goes, that’s pretty hard, if not impossible, to achieve on the same budget, although I must say, your plate strap kit is probably the absolute best option, not to mention the “adjustability” feature you designed. Great job! Lack of location pins, not so much. The 6 dollar addition to the kit, which would likely cut the accuracy error in HALF, reminds me of the line in the Pink Floyd song “Us and Them”; “for want of the price of tea and a slice, the old man died”, I have my own version, but it’s not G rated, so I’ll stop there.

We should have a “Table Test” instead of a “Fireball tool Challenge”, you send me a steel plate, reasonably flat, and using the exact same items AND the two locating pins I made, (simply 2 3” long pieces cut from a longer piece of bar, lightly chamfered with a little bench top sander, nothing fancy) and I’ll drill the holes, without constantly measuring, basically relying upon the fixture plate’s accuracy, and the use of proper locating pins, and I bet that I can easily get within the .002” range that you’re saying shouldn’t be expected.

According to Obadiah in the movie Iron Man, “Tony Stark made this, in a cave, with scraps!”; I’m definitely no Tony Stark, but my workshop is reminiscent of a cave, and I don’t have a problem working with scraps, brand new stuff is great, but on the DIY budget, it’s not always possible.

[Fireball_Jason]

You want Fireball to provide a precision pins that fits every hole size that the user drills? For example, the drill bit, is it new or used? Is it an annular cutter or spiral jobber bit? What hole size was actually drilled? What’s the hole finish? Was the hole chamfered on the back side of the hole before it’s used as a reference? All these things could alter the desired result. It’s up to the user to understand what’s happening. This is a drill guide template, ment to guide and control the drilling operation, not a table maker. Fireball has no control over the material or tools used to drill the hole, that’s the user choice. There too many variables on the users end that’s going to change the outcome of the product.
The material has a big part in desired outcome. The thickness, reference edges, and stability of the plate like a frame or no frame. And of course flatness. This is huge. If the plate has any warp or bow it’s going to throw off the layout. If you clamp the template to a bowed surface that’s going to change something. The mag drill will drill an angle through the plate. It probably won’t be noticeable but it could tolerance stack. All of these are common sense fabrication practices. That need to be considered.

These are all things Fireball has no control over. It’s up to the user to identify these potential issues and solve them. The small clearances in the pins are for convenience of installing and removing the pin. The last thing you want is a pin so tight that you have to hammer it in the hole or pull it out with a with pliers every single hole. There’s a O-ring groove in the pin as an option if you want to remove any clearance bit it much harder to install and remove the pin. These clearance is an opportunity for course correction. You can make minor adjustments depending on the hole size or plate conditions. Like I said in the video. You’re going to try to get it close as possible. How close is up to the user. Make custom pins based off of your hole size, we encourage it. I’ve seen incredible results using the drill template. It works! It’s a far better solution to drill holes than anything else in the market. We suggest the pro kit plate if you don’t feel confident or comfortable with taking on a project like this.

[mobilehomey]

Do I expect Fireball to provide ANYTHING for free? Absolutely not. Do I expect Fireball to provide precision pins to fit EVERY holes size that the customer drills? Absolutely not, but to make it clear, I DO expect Fireball to provide a set (TWO!) of precision pins only for the particular size template that a specific customer orders? Damn right I do. Do I expect Fireball to provide ANY hole making tool at all, or be responsible for whatever the customer chooses to make said hole? Absolutely not! The rest of your first, and all of your second paragraphs, are indisputable facts.

But you don’t make much progress beyond the second sentence of your third paragraph; “The small clearances in the pins are for convenience of installing and removing the pin”, as far as the INTENDED FUNCTION of the pin, yes, that clearance is necessary, because they are TACKING PINS! However, the use of a sloppy fitting pin can, and does, cause alignment errors within as few as three rows, even if you used an o ring to help with the alignment of the pins. And since you brought up the use of o rings to aid with alignment, WHY DIDN’T YOU SUPPLY ANY WITH THE REST OF THE PARTS? Obviously with some kind of up charge; again, I don’t think anyone at all would complain about paying more and getting more. Especially when it aids with accuracy.

If Cleetus, or Joe Bob, choose a low quality, or improper cutting tool, that’s their problem. No different than if someone tried to use a normal hand drill instead of a mag drill. Same concept applies to cutting tool wear, but it is FAR LESS of an issue, which is easily proven by the fact that the pins I made fit the same, from the first hole I drilled, to hole #400. I DO NOT buy junk tools, hell, I’m not even trying to say that about YOUR TOOLS, even after encountering problems, and spending time and money to discover the root cause. Money that you should have invested in the first place, and passed that cost to us, the end users. Forest for the trees dude, it’s that simple.

I already offered up the challenge; you provide the plate, I will use the EXACT SAME template and parts that I received, and only add TWO ADDITIONAL PINS, I can achieve near perfect alignment, WITHOUT HAVING TO MEASURE EVERY 4 DAMN INCHES! If anything, I would think that having a random customer prove this claim, on video, no less, would INCREASE sales, not to mention CUSTOMER CONFIDENCE in what is just short of a completely fantastic product; you tripped right before the finish line, but you insist on doubling down on using pins with an intentional loose fit, as being “good enough” to be used to accurately locate the template.

DO NOT attempt to hide a FLAW as a FEATURE, if you want to be salty about being called out, that’s on you, but as I said before, in different words, you are turning a simple OVERSIGHT into a massive OBFUSCATION! Is this issue going to cause me to not buy Fireball products? Absolutely not. Do you have great ideas? Yes, 100% Am I still really pissed off about to whole thing? No, not really, I am disappointed of your handling of the issue, quite frankly. You should not be so quick to dismiss an easily preventable issue by pulling the “it’s the users fault” card, instead of just including, at additional cost to the users, a more accurate, and extremely simple, solution to the problem. Be the one who solves the problem, not the one who causes the problem!

Lastly, you should likewise not be so quick to dismiss any expectations of precision because of the $300 price point of your product. Remember, you started your whole empire with a simple, very well designed, and most likely, very precise square. Most importantly; it had about the same $300 price point as the fixture. Maybe you’ve become too cool for the regular Joe and Jane, and now that you have Space X and all the big time companies as customers, you don’t need the little guy anymore. You do you, but remember, no matter how big and mighty the tree has become, without its roots, it will always wither and die.

Here’s the receipt, for reference

[TheOtherJoe]

I think the biggest part of the issue is that not everyone knows to look for all these tiny details and how critical they can be, at least before it’s possibly too late and they’ve got what they think is a “destroyed” plate that may have been a pretty big investment for them. I watched your video about the template and thought “that’s definitely the way to go!”, and ordered the starter kit as soon as I could spare the cash. I knew the cutter size would be critical to the accuracy so I ordered and returned several until I found one that was a dead on slip fit with the bushings, but other than that I figured “just follow what he did in the video” and started making little metal tumbleweeds. As everyone here now knows, there’s WAY more to it than that.

The addition of close tolerance pins (sized to fit the bushings, then let the user find the appropriate cutter) in the kit would be awesome, but I think what would be MUCH more valuable is education… an update or follow-up to the video to explain some of these intricacies up front would make all the difference. Even without having tighter alignment pins, knowing what to look for from the start would be such a huge improvement in customer experience.

[Fireball_Jason]

Fireball is providing a “Drill guide template” as the name implies it provides a way to prevent the drill bit from wandering and moving during a drilling process. The guide is only 24” long and 2” wide. To expect Fireball to guarantee perfect hole placement outside its designed intent is unrealistic. The operator is in charge of moving this tool to the next desired location. Fireball can only guarantee correct hole placement within the template itself.

I wish I could drill all the holes for everyone. I wish I could be cloned, but unfortunately thats not happening any time soon. In the meantime Fireball will further research improving the tool from your suggestions.

[mobilehomey]

Joe-

Excellent post, very well written. Just as I said in the infancy of this thread, at least make a topic, or more accurately, a “sticky”, or a “pin”, or a whole new category in the sidebar menu, strictly related to the DIY template. I could be wrong, but I don’t think there have been ANY issues across the entire Fireball tool product lineup, ZERO. Well, there is ONE YouTube video that the guy made going on a self defeating rant about how bad the Fireball squares are, and then starts going off about the “Welding on 3 points video”, being wrong, but when you watch the guy, he clearly doesn’t understand the 3 point concept.

Ultimately, my take on the situation is “GET BOTH”, and by that I mean do the dedicated topic thing, AND add TWO precision locating pins, and simply raise the price of the template to offset the cost of the 2 pins; it’s that simple. The only thing with the pins, at least as you described them, is that they cannot be sized based on the template itself; we aren’t making templates, we are making holes, so the intended hole size is what dictates the size of the pins. Like I said, it’s really simple, 16mm is the desired size, use a precision made 16mm pin to locate the template. Same concept applies to all the different hole size options; you want 3/4” holes? Use the exact same bar stock, from the exact same supplier, but in 3/4” size. Hell, it doesn’t even matter much who the supplier is, as long as you use precision ground stock, although I would stick with a reputable one instead of shopping at Chuck E Chinese’s. Garbage in, garbage out, as the saying goes…

Then just buy a QUALITY cutter, and yes, I’ve watched a ton of comparison videos on the subject of bits and cutters, tooling, etc., and you’ll be fine. I know you said that you bought and returned several cutters until you found a fit that you were happy with; I suppose there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that approach, in my case, I just ordered 2 Hougen brand HSS cutters from MSC (a bit pricey, BTW), and went to work. I’ve purchased thousands of cutters from them before I retired, so I have faith in the quality of their products. (Just as an FYI, if my guys didn’t have to fabricate on site, in the dirt, mud, etc., I’d likely have needed a lot fewer cutters).

[mobilehomey]

Jason-

Well, it would seem that you’ve chosen this hill to die on, so be it.

Exhibit A-

“Fireball is providing a “Drill guide template” as the name implies it provides a way to prevent the drill bit from wandering and moving during a drilling process.”

Correct, without a doubt. However, allow me to introduce……

Exhibit B-

“The small clearances in the pins are for convenience of installing and removing the pin. The last thing you want is a pin so tight that you have to hammer it in the hole or pull it out with a with pliers every single hole. There’s a O-ring groove in the pin as an option if you want to remove any clearance bit it much harder to install and remove the pin. These clearance is an opportunity for course correction. You can make minor adjustments depending on the hole size or plate conditions.”

Cross examine?

Exhibit C-

So, all 3 examples are direct quotes, that you yourself said, period. But where, exactly, in your video, is there any reference to using o rings, for any purpose?

Answer -

THERE ISNT. NONE, ZERO, NADA! I won’t waste 10 TB of space posting the entire transcript, we’ve all likely seen it at least once.

Allow me to continue-

Exhibit D-

Yes, let’s, I agree; allow me to introduce

Exhibit E-

Which brings us back to the original problem; it works, until it doesn’t. Back that statement up with your own, which specifically states the intent of the tacking bolts, but does not include any mention of the o rings referenced in your own words, in Exhibit B.

While you may or may not lose in an actual court of law, you are definitely losing in the court of public opinion, and this could have been avoided so very easily by either #1- including a proper an accurate method to locate the template as the drilling process proceeded perpendicular to the axis of the template, (holy tongue twisters Batman! ) #2- actually mentioning the o rings in Exhibit B during the template instruction video, instead of pulling them out of the air in an attempt to defend what WAS a minor oversight on your part, #3- putting a permanently tacked or pinned thread, or a dedicated sidebar category on the forum, I mean, after all, didn’t you create the Fireball forum to help people? or #4- producing a product update video, addressing the oversight and possible issues that would “help customers achieve the best possible results, on the DIY budget”, didn’t you yourself say almost the exact same sentence during the video?

Starting to sound more and more like “I just wanna make money selling stuff” while at the same time saying “I’m unwilling to make a simple change that would benefit my customers, but I want to help my customers achieve the best possible, REALISTIC results”. I’ve seen a lot of people dig themselves into a hole, but DAMN, you done traded in the shovel for a 100 ton excavator. Seriously dude, I thought you were smarter than that; I guess time, or more accurately, your actions, will tell.

Like I said before, when I get finished, I’ll post up my build, hopefully it’ll help others build their own versions, without unnecessary aggravation. And if they want to critique my build, or play armchair quarterback, they can have at it, I’m not one to get butt hurt because someone pointed out a flaw, or showed me a better way, I welcome feedback, especially when it helps me to do something better.

No more to say, just going to quote Tom Sizemore from the movie HEAT; “STOP TALKING SLICK “

[Fireball_Jason]

mobilehomey —

I appreciate the time you’ve put into your analysis and you passion for the project.

The drill guide does exactly what it’s intended to do. The optional O-ring configuration and clearance discussion are simply additional tuning details for users who want to refine fit for their specific application — not contradictions, and not “oversights.” I don’t prefer to use the O-ring, so I didn’t include it in the video. I’ll gladly make a updated video that’s geared towards the DIY user that needs more guidance.

If someone prefers a different method or wants to modify the design, that’s completely fine. This forum exists so builders can share ideas and improvements. When you finish your version, I’m sure people will be interested in seeing it.

If anyone has suggestions that improve outcomes, I’m always open to that.

Here’s a video of a table being made. Fireball has many happy costumers just like this even though this was well out of the drill templets design parameters. Fireball was praised several times in the video. Quotes like “ I’m really impressed by this tool”, and “ I wouldn’t be able do this with out this drilling guide.'“

Jason

Heavy Duty Fixture Table Built with Fireball Table Drill Template

[mobilehomey]

Well, I had a feeling he might pull some shit like this; apparently, he’s tired of losing, looking bad, and crying about it, so now he’s decided to change the title of my thread from; Templates slightly off” to “Why the drill template doesn’t align at 90 degrees”.

What’s next dude? Gonna go completely off the rails and jump all the way on the censorship bandwagon? You really are starting to give the millennials a bad look, I’ve tried really hard to avoid referring to any generational stereotypes, but you just make it impossible. Whatever, you’ve shown your hand for everyone to see, so at this point I really don’t even GAF if you ban me.

[Rambozo]

A few points.

Any machinist will tell you that this system will not be accurate, no matter what. However, it is probably good enough for most home shop welding tables. It is made to compound errors, it can’t help it. There is no magic fix for that.

If you want an accurate hole pattern, you locate all the holes to a single datum point. There is ideal design and design for manufacturing. We do not live in a perfect world.

Drills fail at three things, they do not make round holes, on size, or in location. What they are is fast and cheap. Reamers will get a hole on size and pretty close to round, but do nothing for location. The only way to make good holes is by boring or grinding. Very slow and expensive. Typically drills hog out the bulk of material, then the hole is finished by boring, reaming, honing, etc.

My guess is Fireball made example holes with a few kinds of twist drills, annular cutters, step drills, etc. both brand new and slightly worn. Then selected a locating pin diameter that would fit in all of them. That would be the proper design for manufacturing method, so the pins would always fit.

While templates can make accurate hole placement possible, you can’t do that if you move the template. Drill bushings and jigs were the gold standard for manufacturing before CNC came along. You would build an accurate jig with all the required holes. Then install bushings for wear control and tool location. These were typically done on a jig borer. (A very accurate and expensive machine.) So, for example let’s take the hypothetical 30 x 60 table top. That would require a template that was near 30 x 60 with all the holes in it. The hole locations would all be referenced to the first hole. That way the accuracy for every hole could be held to a small value, say .005" for a shop grade fixture table. While this would work perfectly in a factory, building tables by the hundreds, it fails for a DIY making a single table by costing much more than a commercial table.

What Fireball has done is cut out a small part of this ideal template leaving it up to the maker as to the accuracy they want to achieve with it.

First what size holes are you drilling? Are they round? Are they tapered? How much runout in in the average mag drill? (a lot) Does the drill fit the drill bushings? Do the location pins fit? Now you have to step the template down 30 rows to produce all the holes. Let’s say you do a reasonable job and can hold each hole to under .005” for size and location. That could still give you over a 1/8” of error for the last row of holes. While it would still be okay locally for fence blocks and the like, you could not rely on measurements taken over long distances. There is no great way to correct that without taking measurements and making corrections along the way.

To get that same .005” accuracy over the whole table with a moving template, every hole would have to be on size and location to better than 4 microns, or about the thickness of a Sharpie mark.

If you want more details, read “Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy” by Wayne Moore.

Of Moore Jig Borer fame.

[mobilehomey]

Ok, down the rabbit hole we go, again, actually, no. I’m done going back and forth in 4 different directions in regards to all the infinitely different variables, micron tolerances, different types of drill bits/annular cutters, manufacturing techniques etc., ad nauseam, it makes me want to puke, let’s just STOP making this harder and more complicated than it needs to be, Mkaay?

I’m just going to finish drilling the holes, attempt to make a halfway decent video to explain what WAS happening during the first half of the drilling process, and what the impact of using the 2 freaking pins I keep referring to has on the second half of the drilling process. If the video sucks, then I’ll just use the progress photos I continue to compile as I get farther and farther along.

Either way, I’m not going to make any changes to the original group of holes, nor will I try to modify the second group, so “the truth will be told by the tolerances”; yeah, that even sounds corny, but I’m sure you get the point. I really cannot understand why certain people think I’m trying to achieve some kind of miracle level tolerances, because that is absolutely NOT the case. I’m simply trying to achieve better CONSISTENCY, without any fanatical amount of measurements; in other words, I’m trying to improve Fireball’s original design enough to make it considerably more accurate, but without causing it to be overly complicated, or requiring a hell of a lot more measurements.

Anyway, while I can take decent quality pictures, my editing skills completely suck, so consider yourselves warned, no matter if I end up making a video presentation, or a 7th grade picture collage, it ain’t gonna be no modern content creator quality masterpiece, but it should turn out better than a crayon on a bar napkin sketch with some pictures type thing, I think I can at least make that promise…hopefully

[StranjBikes]

What was the maximum intended size for the drill guide?

[TheOtherJoe]

Then just buy a QUALITY cutter, and yes, I’ve watched a ton of comparison videos on the subject of bits and cutters, tooling, etc., and you’ll be fine. I know you said that you bought and returned several cutters until you found a fit that you were happy with; I suppose there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that approach

I actually did buy a brand name cutters the first couple times. The first was 0.005 oversized so it wouldn’t fit in the template, and the second was 0.010 undersized, which I felt was was too sloppy. That’s when I bought a bunch on Amazon to see if any would be closer to nominal. I ended up keeping a Keentech 2” depth carbide as primary and an S&F 2” depth HSS as a backup. Both are a perfect slip fit with the bushings. When I first found the alignment issue, I thought maybe the carbide was “wandering” after the cutters are fully in the plate, since the narrower body isn’t being guided by the bushing. I switched to the HSS cutter and thankfully nothing changed. To it’s credit, the carbide almost made it through 2 full tables (did a friend’s too), but I dropped it and chipped a tooth. Thankfully a replacement was only $30. Pretty good for a cheap cutter! Although I do keep it literally FLOODED with coolant the whole time.

[mobilehomey]

Just out of curiosity, what brand was oversized, and was it carbide? I prefer carbide insert type tooling in most applications, but with annular cutters, HSS has always just flat out WORKED, at least in my experience. Also, you didn’t happen to acquire the oversized one from scamazon, did you?

[TheOtherJoe]

It was a carbide Evolution 3/4” x 2”. I know, not quite “Hougen” quality, but not exactly crap either. Yes it was from Amazon, all of them were, for the exact reason of zero hassle returns.

[mobilehomey]

Quite the contrary Joe, in the beginning of the “mag drill mania” project, before I retired, we started with 2 Evolution drills, and I used Evolution cutters as well, and never had any issues, the only reason I switched to Hougen was my go to guys couldn’t keep up with the amount of cutters I needed; dirt, mud, and sand tended to eat them up, and carbide would’ve likely died a similar death, but the extra $$ wasn’t worth the squeeze. When you have to constantly alter the shoring system as it’s installed due to unexpected obstacles, and the project is a triple pipeline directly across an active airport, you don’t have time to wait for more cutters.

Anyway, the reason I mentioned scamazon was that it’s not unheard of to get a chineseium counterfeit, probably not as risky as temu or some other fly by night company, but I usually get my stuff from McMaster, MSC, or Grainger, in that order. I totally understand why people use scamazon, but in my experience, unless it’s the only place I can find something, or someone that charges ridiculous fees for shipping, I avoid them altogether. Just my personal opinion.

[mfmatusky]

Glad to have a MACHINIST in the discussion. A totally different point of view from a FABRICATOR or a WELDER.

[mfmatusky]

I don’t think it’s Jason that is “looking bad”. It looks to me like you didn’t pay close enough attention to where YOUR use of the Fireball template led to deviations / variation beyond YOUR expectations. It also appears you didn’t do much to measure if your actual results were meeting your expectations along the way, a step that might have illuminated ways to improve your outcome. I would bet that increasing the accuracy (reducing deviations in bushing locations) of the Fireball template would/will not improve your outcome. Sorry.

As for Jason’s / Fireball’s contribution to your expectations not being met all I would suggest is Fireball choosing the cutter (for a optimal fit in the bushings AND a (better) known actual diameter hole produced) , including (the first) one in the kit, and offering a discount on replacements for when the first one dulls.

Beyond that, being very specific in the template instructions as to where in the process inacuracies are most likely to creep in, and how to catch and mitigate them, might help welder / fabricators produce the accuracy machinists are known for.

[mobilehomey]

Like I mentioned somewhere earlier, don’t remember where or when, “garbage in, garbage out “. When you get a template that is made flat, straight, and has all the hole locations within 0.001”, (which is what Fireball provides, no argument about that), but provides you with tacking bolts that have a SIGNIFICANTLY larger amount of play; this allows errors that can, and do, begin to stack up, starting with the very second row of holes. Should I check my work as I progress? Yes. Should I have to check it EVERY SINGLE ROW? Hell NO, especially when you consider the fact that I DO check the “fit” of the cutter in relation to the bushing EVERY SINGLE HOLE!

Once again, you need to be reminded that the method Fireball intended, and provided, to locate, and re-locate, repeatedly, throughout the entire length of the table, is to use the tacking bolts, which by design, are a LOOSE fit; something designed to be used for location needs to be made to tighter tolerances. You, of all people, should understand this, especially because of your skillset. (Think gage pins, Mkaay, now are you getting the picture?) I don’t know if you are an actual machinist, but I do remember some of your posts about GD&T, so I know you are capable of understanding what I’m saying.

Like I replied to Rambozo a few days ago, I’m going to finish the holes, and then do my best to make a video, series of videos, slide show, whatever I can, that simply shows the single basic flaw with the DIY template system, and the $6 cure for it. And when I say flaw with the system, I’m SPECIFICALLY referring to the means provided to locate the template. All the discussion in the world isn’t going to change that fact, and what makes the conversation head south every single time is when people try to look at the problem using the “machinist mindset”; in other words, you’re overthinking it, it’s a simple template, no more, no less. I have already proven that the errors that arise, and stack up, are due to the LACK of a tighter fitting pin.

I’m not saying that the errors are going to be magically eliminated, and I never did. The use of 2 pieces of precision ground rod, 2.5” long each, used to locate the template each time it is “jumped “ significantly reduces the margin of error, it doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t use the tacking bolts; they are definitely the best way to HOLD THE TEMPLATE DOWN, but that’s where their purpose ends. Essentially, this entire thread revolves around that point, and I’ll explain it again; Fireball supplies the customer with the template and hardware to make their own holes, “as accurately as possible, on the DIY budget”, in Jason’s own words. Where I call bullshit is their means to hold the template with any kind of accuracy, or repeatability, if you will.

The only thing that remains is for me to show that fact, either by video or pictures, or a combination of both. I guess I’m just going to have to put everything on hold, finish the holes, and show the evidence. Because while I may be able to explain it to you, I can’t understand it for you. I’m not saying that in a bad way, either. Perhaps I just lack the ability to verbally explain everything, and need to do so through pictures and video. We shall see.

[mfmatusky]

I’ve been to this movie more times than I can count. You started with the claim of the template being innacurate. That’s a false claim. Then you comp-itched when Jason changed the title to more accurately reflect the situation. You need to do a better job using the tool if you want better results. Your “solution” doesn’t work for the company selling the tool, it works for the person who drills the holes. That’s you. Try this: “I wasn’t careful enough when I re-set the template” or maybe “I expected it to just work without a lot of effort on my part”. Either one will get you better results than any amount of documentation you muster about where your project went wrong.