Why the drill template doesn't align at 90 degrees

[mobilehomey]

Look Einstein, before you get lippy, AND make yourself look bad at the same time; the ORIGINAL thread title was “Templates slightly off?” See that squiggly thing after the second letter f in the word off; it’s a QUESTION MARK, because I wasn’t sure what the issue was. Secondly, you skipped over a LOT of the conversation, during which the actual issue was discovered, and discussed.

The solution works for everyone, and I stated that, specifically. If Fireball chooses not to adopt it, that’s on them. When you offer a DIY product, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to leave out something so simple, that can HELP their customers, and make themselves look better in the process. I never said they should offer anything additional without an up charge, but as I said, that’s on them.

Now when everyone starts going off the deep end, talking about every single infinitesimally tiny possibility, it really gets ridiculous. And if you actually read everything I’ve said in both of my threads, you would see that I think most everything Fireball makes is good, if not great stuff. So don’t make it into a Jason bash, because it’s not. Did it piss me off when he changed the title? Of course it did, because the title was a QUESTION, no more, no less, why change it? Regardless, his discourse group, his choice.

Try this: “I wasn’t careful enough when I re-set the template” As far as that statement goes, as I just said, YOU SKIPPED OVER A LOT OF THE CONVERSATION, because I said that in the beginning. I guess in your case, reading is fundamental, but COMPREHENSION IS PRICELESS. Obviously that seems to be part of your problem.

And as far as projects going wrong, there’s at least a half dozen people that encounter the same thing, sooooo common sense would seem to dictate that EVERYONE involved, at least the people who are actually making and sharing their projects and ideas, would benefit greatly by an included set of locating pins. Armchair quarterbacks, on the other hand, not so much. I have no idea how you managed to get so much sand in your crack from my previous post, but ya might wanna figure it out, or not, that’s YOUR problem….

[mfmatusky]

LOL

[Tanners_Fabrication]

We ran into the same issue after drilling our first 22 rows. We’re building a 48”x120” table so I didn’t expect it to be perfect. For my budget fixture table I couldn’t be happier with the drill guide. We’re already using one end of the table and it’s a game changer. I was hoping to use the drill guide as a fixture but it is what it is.

[mobilehomey]

WOW! Now that is some serious ambition. I kinda figured that if someone made a huge table using the template that it could potentially have errors in both directions, as the overall size is almost twice the width, I was really careful and mine was only 36” wide. I suppose in your case, you could start in the middle of whatever edge you choose, and then you would still have half the original holes that you can use to reference, to try and keep your rows straight. It definitely makes you jump the template one more time per row, but, at least based on my results, it worked.

I’ll try to post up my results today; I tried recording yesterday, and the results were abysmal. BTW, do you have the same drill as I do? Because if you do, I found that by slipping 4 1/8” parallels between the base and the template allowed me to hold a perfect offset, and I only had to mess with alignment in the other direction, just food for thought. And welcome to the forum!

[Tanners_Fabrication]

Left to right the holes line up perfect. It’s only when we rotate the drill guide 90 degrees that we notice an issue.

I’m using the same mag drill. I’ve struggled with annular cutters though. I’ve been through 3 Amazon carbide cutters. We started using HSS and are 100 holes in and counting. I ordered a carbide cutter from McMaster Carr but I can’t seem to get it to lock into my Dewalt. According to McMaster the cutter is compatible with my drill but it’s not.

Overall I’m super pleased with the drill guide, it is what it is. If I had big money I’d order one of their tables.

[mobilehomey]

As long as the cutter is a 3/4” Weldon shank, it should work fine, my drill is pretty finicky sometimes, and the coolant swivel stopped flowing after the 2nd hole, but . The template is about as good as you can get, it’s just the location method provided that sucks. Look at the picture, you can see one of the pins I made; they ended up working perfectly.

[mfmatusky]

That MobileH, is a beautiful picture. Camera? or Phone? Either way I can imagine your frustration that your video doesn’t come out.

My question is, Does the stack of shims either push, or allow, the cutter to one side or the other of the bore of the bushing? There’s got to be a little bit of clearance just for a spinning slip fit. The use of the shim pack may be keeping the “float” of the cutter in the bushing from just being random (sometimes forward, sometimes back) thus lengthening or shortening each step of the template across the plate.
I’d also add that the distance between the drill spindle and the side of the magnet (against the shims) is likely to vary, perhaps substantially, from one DWE1622 to the next. A half-inch shim pack might create a problem that random float wouldn’t (especially across a substantial number of resets of the template). Choose one: Either the cutter follows the bushing, or the cutter is A +/- a + B +/- b + C +/- c from the bushing (A being the dimension from the spindle to the surface on the base, B being the dimension across the shim pack, and C being the distance from the side of the template to the center of the bushing. Each has some deviation, +/-).

A cutter with as tight a fit to the bushing as practically possible would be my suggestion, keeping the drill base away from the edge of the template.

[mfmatusky]

Why only 7 holes in each row? The template has 12 holes. Why did you choose to not drill all 12?

Why the gaps between each 7 x 22 grid of holes? Is that a 6 inch (two missing rows) gap? (Looks like it.)

Did you set the template to the edge of the plate for each 7 x 22 grid?

How straight are the edges? How square are the “corners”?

Are you in Bellingham WA?

[mfmatusky]

Reply to self: Thoughts on fixture tables- Thinking about the Fireball projects of 1) making two rectangular frames and 2) making “tables” based on the same design for the frames.
There are basically 3 ways to locate the 4 pieces of tube for the frames: 1) Cut the parts with the best precision you can muster, align the corner joints, and tack/weld 2) cut parts with equal or less precision, plug pins into the fixture table, and calculate the shims needed to come up with the correct dimensions via the hole-to-hole table dimensions or 3) plug pins into the fixture table and measure and shim as determined by measurements to hit the correct dimensions.

For method 1 use a GOOD square. If your hole grid locations are good enough you can use method 2. If they’re not good enough stick with method 3. But don’t cross your fingers that the holes are “good enough” and try method 2 when they’re only good enough for method 3.

I dream of a table good enough to method 2 fixture up 4 frames, one in each corner of the table, weld them, and not be able to tell by measurement (or fitting them back in) which came from which corner…

Similarly we can make the “tables” by cutting the ends of the legs really, really square and butting them against the frame tubes. Or we can “square up” the legs with Fireball “LEGO” blocks. Or we can use the Fireball stand up 3-Axis square to hold the leg perpendicular to the table (and the side of the leg, assuming the table is flat and the tube is straight). The best choice depends (of course) on what you have or just how tall the leg is…

[mobilehomey]

Hey, if it isn’t Captain Caliper, leader of the micrometer militia! J/K, but not sure what you’re saying regarding the picture, I used a beat to hell iPhone 8, I think. Anyway, the “shim pack” actually does hold the drill perfectly in the center of the drill bushing, (the spinning slip fit you described) regarding front to back alignment. Side to side alignment is accomplished (in my case) by pulling and pushing the cutter sideways with finger pressure (after turning on the magnet) to determine if the cutter has equal drag in either direction as the cutter is raised and lowered into the bushings, and adjusting the drill position if needed, but it is quite aggravating to say the least.

It is very time consuming to do this every single hole, but at least in my case, using the shims and the finger method, it did work 100%, once I started using the pins in addition to the tacking bolts. I’m sure the shim thing may not work for everyone, due to the various drill models offered; four parallels just happened to work easily, if I had to use a whole bunch of shims, especially very thin ones, probably not so much. The only problem I found with the shims was they had to be blown clean, or at minimum wiped down every hole; like Wisco mentioned, one tiny piece of swarf, and it makes alignment very difficult.

I did make a second video; somehow without the sound, so it’s like watching an Italian mime explaining the process (yes, I talk with my hands). I’m just going to take a few more pictures, and slap them up with a fairly brief explanation. I basically just did the same thing that TheOtherJoe did, minus the tooth blocks, and my pins were not as nice, just cut and chamfered pieces of rod, but with a lot closer tolerance. Here’s his version, for example.

I also do not intend to go back and ream the original holes where the template doesn’t work at 90*; all the other fixture blocks work everywhere on the table, although I would bet that if I tried one of those really long ones, it might have issues . But I don’t, and I’m not planning on getting any, so I’m not going to worry about it. I just want to get the top finished, so I can get my Bridgeport head mounted to it and get it fixed. I’ve seen plenty of guys who stand on a ladder to get it done; nope, I’ll pass.

[mfmatusky]

Sincerely, Your photo quality is top notch. I can’t do that well (Newer Android phone) but if I could I’d be pissed if I couldn’t get video of comparable quality.

Captain Caliper? Love it, I’ve been called both better and worse. “Sister Mike” was one favorite. It’s a long story…

I don’t get why a “shim pack”. Why 4 x 1/8” shims? Why not a single 1/2 “? Less cleaning and less chance of that bastard chip getting in there, spoiling a whole row, AND any rows based on the first bad row.

I learned long ago not to use the word “perfectly” when referring to fits or dimensions. “Nothing is perfect and it’s my job to find out where and how things aren’t”. I got that from a CMM (Coordinate Measurement Machine) operator who graciously mentored me as a newly minted (1994) Dimensional Management Engineer.

Among the other things I learned is to let ONE specific loop of mating relationships (cutter OD to bushing bore) locate one feature to another. A second loop (like cutter OD, to the drill base, to the shim pack, to the template edge, to the bushing bore) seldom “refines” the relationship; it more often starts a fight, and neither loop does a good job. Think; if one of them did a good job you wouldn’t see a need to add the other. (And is every drill bushing the same distance from the template edge?)

You may say that the bushing locates the cutter in X and Y while the shim pack only works in X but there’s still a fight. Even if it starts in X, Y will get pulled in… And this situation is hidden when we bring in the added relationships between the drill bushing bore, to the locating bushing bore, to the pin (whatever pin), THROUGH the pin bushing, to an already drilled hole.

You fixed the worst relationship on that loop with your improved pins, but that’s not a fix the template / tacking bolt maker can make as the customer’s choice of cutter will determine the loose or even too tight fit of the pin to the drilled holes. After the bodies of the tacking bolts are slipped (pushed?) into the holes how well do they actually center? What’s your plate thickness / How smooth are your bores? Did you raise a burr on the underside of the hole?? How patient were you when you were breaking through on your 75th or 100th hole? These BORING* details will fight with you for the quality of your grid.

By the way, reaming the holes WILL NOT CORRECT THEIR LOCATIONS. A reamer will follow the hole’s wrong location and try to follow any deviation in orientation. And by its nature it would make them bigger. Actually boring them would be necessary but boring them will also make them bigger. (You could start at an undersize but I digress…) Nice finish though, but really *BORING.

Anyone still awake out there?

[mobilehomey]

@mfmatusky

I learned long ago not to use the word “perfectly” when referring to fits or dimensions. “Nothing is perfect and it’s my job to find out where and how things aren’t”. I got that from a CMM (Coordinate Measurement Machine) operator who graciously mentored me as a newly minted (1994) Dimensional Management Engineer.

Well, forget Captain Caliper, you just got elected as the new Commander in Chief of the Micrometer Militia! Seriously though, the four shims were simply what I had available, and they worked. I just didn’t feel like I needed to spend any money to fix something that wasn’t broken, that’s all. As far as the pin vs cutter issue, you’re absolutely right, and others have indeed had the same issue in regards to cutters being slightly bigger or smaller. That’s why I chose to use the tight tolerance bar stock, if there was any issue at all, then I would have been all over the cutter manufacturer regarding their product, and if I was still unable to get an accurate cutter, I would have probably switched over to a suitable end mill with a Weldon shank, likely carbide or cobalt, to make the holes.

I was surprised by the fact that the fit of the pin is just as good from hole #1 to hole #500, the cutter is a tiny bit duller than brand new, but the diameter seems to have held steady. I also made a template for the smaller holes that are needed when making the “pro series” top, as this particular style uses 3/8-16 fasteners to hold the top to the frame, as well as “fine tune” the flatness. That’s the main reason I chose this style of table, instead of trying to re-create a DIY dragon wagon. I could also replace the top if it gets seriously damaged somehow, and it requires less welding and doesn’t have side skirts either.

What I’m building

And what most other people are building

Obviously, as everyone is doing their own version, they won’t look exactly like these examples from the Fireball website, but you get the idea. I did notice while making my own template, I had the same experience with the Hougen brand HSS cutter, this time I had to make 3 holes 5/8” diameter, for the 5/16” drill bushings I used. The cutter was exactly the right size, as the bushings were also 5/8“ OD, and required a press fit; too small, and they won’t stay in place, too big, good luck forcing the bushings in straight.

My crappy template, made from a leftover piece of 1” plate

I marked out the first few groups of holes by hand, and said NOPE, and made this instead, and while making it, I butted the plate tightly against the drill base on 2 sides, so I could eliminate using them damn shims. For reference, it took me longer to accurately mark out and center punch 5 groups of 3 holes each than it did to make the template, including removing all the mill scale and major imperfections from the plate. Time well spent, IMO. The 3 smaller bushings could even be added to a newer version of the Fireball template, but they would likely have to be located on the end of it, so it doesn’t weaken the existing design due to too many holes too close together. Probably not going to happen, the juice isn’t worth the squeeze, as they would have to change the design of the current product.

[Knick]

This is really good info you guys are providing for anyone looking to make there own table top.

I made a 5x8 table, and was going to use a drill guide, but then I decided drill all those holes was just going to take to long. I ended up having my top drilled on a large mill. otherwise I would still be drilling on it year later.

Anyways thanks to everyone who has contributed

[mobilehomey]

Yeah, drilling all them holes absolutely SUCKS, but an ambitious person could probably knock out a table your size in 4 days; the speed is relative to the attention to detail, with plenty of coolant, and a few good quality cutters, it’s not really that hard. Shitty cutters, combined with the lack of spares, seems to be the only real thing slowing peoples progress, that and the fact that they run into the 90* alignment issue, which makes a lot of us stop, and then we go WTF? and then we either A- say screw it, it’s good enough, or B- come up with a solution that makes the results better.

Either way, the entire table I’m copying has cost me about $760 total, including cutters, all materials, and the template; a Fireball (top only) is $1,900​(and yes, it is 1’ longer than mine, but for another $60, I could have made mine the same size). If someone has the time, the math is simple, plus you can make one whatever size they want, and as complicated as they can handle. Obviously you already know this, as you’re making your own. The DIY template is a good option, I just think they stumbled in regards to the instructional video and/or location method, but there will always be different opinions on that aspect.

Just curious, how much did it cost to have your holes drilled?

[MBSwelding]

I used a Milwaukee brand carbide tipped annular I bought from Grainger and it cut all 552 holes in my 48” x 48” table.

[mfmatusky]

Cost and timing of the mill/drill operation??? My other curiosity is has anyone used any sorcery to make flat a less-than-flat plate?? Yeah there are solutions requiring a million dollar machine tool or Blanchard Grinder but anyone have a compromise solution?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrodNx759oo

Lapping my Granite Surface Plate to AA Grade

You also bring out the differences between 1) manual layout (layout dye, scribed lines, centerpunch+center drill, then finally drill or annular cut holes), 2) machine layout (drill/cut hole, turn lead screw, drill next hole, repeat), and 3) drill template (locate template, drill holes, move template to new holes, repeat). Each has cost and availability to be solved and solutions depend on what one has, what one is close to, and money. Money of course sub-divides into spending vs investment…

Accuracy? The whole point is to get the most accuracy for the least money. And the hope is to get the next level of accuracy while spending the last (or even prior) level of money. Then there’s time…
Regardless of method, the desired level of accuracy is every hole the exact same 2 inch distance from 2, 3, or 4 neighbors. (GD&T reference: Basic dimensions or Designer’s purest intent). As an aside, consider checking this by teeing up a pair of 1” ball bearings in adjacent holes (DEBURRED, BUT NOT COUNTERSUNK) , measuring across the two, and subtracting an inch (getting the center-to-center distance). This can be expanded across 3, 4, or any number of holes and may reveal at exactly what row 1) the locating or drilling operation went wild or 2) that the drilling op typically produced holes just a couple thousandths closer, or further apart than intended. Keep in mind that what may appear to be a straight line of holes may actually be a zig-zag… And that two apparently perpendicular rows of holes may actually be at slightly more or less than 90 degrees… Hmmmm… How about 4 ball bearings in two “perpendicular” rows, a precision square, a fifth ball, and feeler gages?

But all that measurement depends on having the holes drilled. Too late if they’re poorly located. How to avoid / minimize deviation when drilling, specifically when using a template?

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ???

[mobilehomey]

Yep, that about covers it, but you forgot to mention the potential errors induced by the coriolus effect, also does daylight savings time factor in, and what about gravitational pull?

[mfmatusky]

Just got a popup of your reply. This was written before I read it…

Crappy template? For me that’s inspirational! You’ve got machining capability!!!

Try this thought experiment: start wit a 8 x 10 x 1’“ thick plate. Roughly one inch in from two adjacent sides scribe precisely perpendicular layout lines. Drill 4 holes centered on the 8 inch side. You get a pattern of 4 holes, precisely in line, roughly centered, roughly 1 inch in from the 8” edge (which only needs to be roughly straight). Do roughly the same on the 10 inch side but DO NOT REFERENCE THE EDGE OF THE PLATE- REFERENCE THE LINE OF THE 4 HOLES. That’s a 3-4-5 (actually a 6-8-10) triangle, the distance between the two extreme holes should be precisely 10 INCHES (five 2 inch increments). CHECK THIS NOW. If good, set up on the two extreme holes and drill 4 more between them on precisely 2 inch centers.

For me it’s been a while so I’d practice/prototype on a thinner (1/4”?) plate with smaller (1/2”?) holes. Once I knew what I was about I’d drill/ream/bore? all the holes, in a thick plate, sized for press fit drill bushings… I’m sure you get the idea.

But Wait! That’s Not All!- Having made the triangular pattern of 12 holes, WITHOUT REFERENCING ANY PRECISELY STRAIGHT EDGE, consider the benefits of a couple of projecting bosses on each side machined precisely to a specific dimension from each side’s row of holes. Maybe you want the surfaces of the “feet”. Maybe you want room to add some holes/bushings to set the triangle of holes a specific distance from a (perhaps precise) edge. (And don’t forget to add 1 radius if you want to bump pins in the holes against the edge…).

How’s that for a project? Maybe you could make and sell them. (Stamp “US Patent Pending” on the first one if there’s any chance you will…)

[mfmatusky]

A design engineer I worked with had a half a playing card in a stand on his desk. I asked “Did you shoot that?” Yes, .22 LR, around 10/20 yards (pretty short range but still). And for that kind of accuracy yes he mentioned the Coriolus effect.

Gravitational pull? Maybe lean some lead bricks on top of the 1” ball bearings to keep them precisely teed up while measuring along their tangents. But if you left a burr, or countersunk inconsistently, you’re already in the rough.

[mobilehomey]

Homey’s Dictionary:

ENGINEER-

An individual who paid waaay too much money and time, just to get a piece of paper that says they are qualified to determine how to pick up a turd by the clean end. Long story, so I’ll just leave it at that.