But having the equipment is different to using it properly. It could be not enough clamps, not enough fixtures, or even just not enough care being taken. Yes using a proper fixture table can be a convenient go/no-go for the dimensions as Drew demonstrated, but only if you constrain them both inside and out.
What happens when you think “Oh I’m experienced enough to not need the inner constraints”? Suddenly your part is too small and you haven’t bothered to check it.
At first I really thought this was going to be a flame war rebuttal and some sort of ego stroking - and at the very worst some pushy sales tactic. Almost didn’t click on the video. I guess I’m a little jaded. I think I owe you/fireball tool an apology.
Not only did you address your concerns respectfully, in the face of some fairly toxic bullshit, but accurately. And it really blew me away when discussing Drew’s welds. You are 100% correct that in this industry dimensionality makes or breaks you - your welds could be immaculate. Vertical up, ground to perfect gap, cnc pipe laser cut, etc… but if you’re a mil out of spec it’s all for naught.
Frankly, make those shops send you new frames. I expected the one man shop to fail; but those other two… I get the impression the third shop likely sees those kinds of tol. but holy shit. I wasn’t a new welder that long ago - and the best lesson I learned was: “Do it again, until it’s right.” Those shops need to understand that they can’t just send out “junk” and expect to be paid top dollar for it.
… and you’d better measure them again. On or off camera. Because I’m mad. Workmanship is all.
“What happens when you think “Oh I’m experienced enough to not need the inner constraints”? Suddenly your part is too small and you haven’t bothered to check it.”
A Professional takes the steps to make sure the product they make is up to par, and to spec.
If you make the mistake of thinking your that good and do not have to check yourself, then you are foolish. And not a pro.
They could have told him " We are sorry but we can not produce this to your specs. We will not be able to supply these for you"
I would be embarrassed for sure.
I would return the products until they meet specs. A “professional” will want to know if their work fulfills requirements. If they care, they will ask, but, if you tell them before they ask, they will reject your input.
Reminded me to leave very sloppy tolerances in my designs.
Great video. I think that the parts they made served your purpose so I don’t see the point in having the parts remade in the same way. This merits a follow up video with reactions to this video from the shops. I would like to hear their reasons why they couldn’t build the frames to your specifications. Was your request unreasonable for normal fabrication tolerances? I would like to see them retry making the same frames a second time using your fixture table.
I’m not the least bit surprised at the outcome. I bought a Siegmund welding table for a project that was nearly the same problem - making tubing squares. Previous to the fixturing welding table, I had tried to make the tubing squares with a number of different methods and the squares were never flat and the corners varied in squareness. With a fixturing table, I made them easily.
Oh I agree that they should, but we’ve just seen three professionals fail to do exactly that. This is why I think that they took it for granted.
I was honestly surprised by the results. Tho i believe the warping is also due to bad storing of the frames during delivery time.
Absolutely well said. Welding is such a general term - so you end up with armchair experts with a weekend welding hobby “eyeballing” builds and eschewing the importance of fixturing / jigging. Eyeballing has its place, sure, but it’s a weird argument to suggest that a fixture table is a luxury item. That’s doubly-true when talking to someone like you, who have to build a series of parts within tight tolerances - especially when “fail” means losing the job and perhaps the customer rejecting the entire lot.
Making several parts nearly the same - even without super-tight tolerances - is not possible when “eyeballing” it. To suggest otherwise is just hubris. When I see someone spending 5 or 10 times the amount of time on their fixturing than their welding, I’m far more confident in their ability to hit the mark. Same goes for carpenters.
I joined just so I could reply here hehe! So, I’m an aircraft structures mechanic, and have nearly 25 years experience in the industry now. I am not surprised by these results at all, and I’ll tell you why:
The main issue here is something I think everyone runs into in the Trades. People with experience tend to become totally complacent. They become overconfident in their skills and abilities, and actually start to degrade in their craftsmanship due to this. They feel they’re above having to constantly practice the basics. So when something simple comes along (like welding together a small frame), they feel like it’s super easy. They don’t spend the time to follow instructions, skip details in the building process, and ultimately deliver an end product their original instructors would have failed them on.
Some if the best mechanics I’ve worked wirth have only been in the industry for less than 5 years. Why? They’re still in that mindset of learning/humility. They still feel the need to pay attention and deliver in order to prove themselves worthy amongst their peers. Some of the absolute worst mexhanics I’ve worked with have been in the industry for over 20 years. They are typically rude, condescending, lazy and hardly proficient. Very few still take pride in their workmanship. It is my goal to hold onto that humility in my career. I still learn new tips and tricks, and hope to continue to do so. My workmanship is my livelihood, and so my end product is a reflection of who I am as an individual.
Nothing is ever too simple or too easy. You’re never above the basics. As soon as you feel you are, you’re already defeated.
Very well said. I have been lucky in my welding career especially early on) to have been surrounded by high achieving fabricators who hold themselves to a high standard, and actually find enjoyment in doing things well. But that is definitely the exception and not the rule. Where I work now I see this on full display where I simply can’t fathom how some of these guys think their level of quality is acceptable. Thankfully we use fixtures and have a good QC department haha
I think you hit the nail on the head, exactly what I was thinking after watching the new video. Well said. Often too true I’m afraid. Jason, well done video.
No. The squares won’t warp during storage, they’re not pieces of wood. The frames warp from the heat during welding. In making squares the welding sequence is extremely important, including the sequence for tacking the corners. In my shop, I can set up my horizontal bandsaw with stops. If I’m careful, the saw’s repeatability is within 0.006 in length between 12 parts making mitered corners at both ends. From that point, the problem becomes making the frames flat and square. The fixture table makes that much easier. For the people who think setting up the table is a long process, once you know the table and how to set it up, it’s actually faster because you never have to check each corner for square with every frame. The fixture automatically ensures the corners are square. The welding process becomes faster and easier.
Ask each shop for an email address, send them the link to your video, and offer them to buy your welding tables. Great video!
Pro welders suck. Outdated tools and bad fixture tables are the reason I have to get the job done myself…
If you don’t send them back and ask a refund you are not helping the world to be a better place. You have two options, ask a refund or demand them to remake it again under the required specifications as they have assured you they would.
Doesn’t matter you used them for a video. That’s what they would do to us! they deserve no less than to honor what they have promised.
Thanks i didn’t know that, i thought the part where the weld sits atleast could warp during storing. I haven’t welded anything big yet and the small stuff i welded couldn’t really warp due to size. i usually work with wood so when it comes to warping in frames or something similar i usually think to bad storing first.
Not even surprised at all by the result. Experience should tell them that having the right tool allows them to make better work. I’m a printmaker and work as a large format specialist, if I print a banner the wrong size, the wrong color or whatever that isn’t per the clients requirements, one I’ll look like an idiot and two the client is absolutely entitled to either have the work redone per the requirements or the job reimbursed. I also have my little gig on the side where I use traditional printing methods if I cut some business cards all different sizes because I don’t have the tools to cut them correctly, that’s my problem not the client’s…
So I’d say, bring it back saying it’s out of spec, specs that they agreed to in the first place
What jumped out at me after watching the video is that this is basically the philosophy of Legalism. With proper tools and instructions even an unskilled person can deliver the desired results. Alternatively this about having standards and adhering to them.
The results were surprising but mainly for shop C. I was almost certain they were going to deliver the results you wanted.
Drew’s results was surprising but also makes sense. With the tools used it is forcing the products to comply with the specifications.
With that out of the way, while the results are great I am still not sure if it is a simple decision. A major problem here is that while it will enable you to deliver better results I am not sure it will necessarily be appreciated by your customers. If you can get customers consistently that will appreciate/expects this sort of results then it is a good investment. For some products “good enough” is good enough.
Moving aside from the products(both the fixtures and the frame) it is also interesting to consider the human element. As demonstrated by the video it enables hiring people for positions you might not otherwise be able to. If you are hiring people this means there is a wider pool of people you can hire from. It also means that if you are hiring less experienced people they can start doing useful work sooner.
I think you should give them a chance to fix their mistake by just going back and saying they are out of spec. All places make mistakes, what they do afterwards is very telling. I know I have made mistakes and would absolutely want to fix it and have the chance to make it right for the customer.
Also it would be interesting to see how much in the hole each company would go to make it to spec or if they would just give up, as each place said it would be easy to do.