I was wondering what you guys thought about the claims made in the video I linked below? I’m especially curious about the start of the video when he shows the sticker on the side of the shipping crate. I wasn’t aware of any affiliation with stronghand tools and the “made in China” was a bit alarming.
Thoughts?
The video link was set to a specific time on the video. I didn’t watch the whole thing but I was going to point out that it looks a little biased. They have their nice and new shiny Siegmund table but they are comparing it to a fireball table that looks old and neglected with all kinds of rust on it. The other red flag I saw was that when he is doing the drop test he is having it land edge first on the Siegmund table while every drop on the Fireball table is blatantly aiming to have it hit corner first. It just seems a bit misleading and shady to not have reasonably consistent conditions and tests.
Yeah I’m wondering if they ordered them like 6 months ago and left them outside and then just pretended to unbox them as if they just ordered them or if there are genuine quality control lapses at play. Because I have to admit I was surprised at the rusting on the dragon wagon since it has the dragon scale coating on it.
Here’s a comment I just posted to the video for my thoughts.
"I love the features of your clamps! I’d have never thought to have the pad be notched or have the ability for it to be a table fixture accessory!
I was unaware, and disheartened to hear, fireball was making claims misrepresenting the quality of your product. I went to their channel, searched for Siegmund, watched two short videos quickly pointing out how they differed in how they are manufactured, and how straight they were. But was unable to find anything that may be seen as degrading or misrepresenting.
Similar to how you demonstrated the Fireball tables inability to withstand blunt force to its corners and tops, how poor the surface finish is upon unboxing, and variation in their clamp fixtures, Fireball demonstrated their method of manufacturing results in differences when assessing flatness and its ability to potentially maintain flatness.
As someone with no skin in this game, I will give credit that Fireball uses testing methods that accurately portray abilities of a product when comparing it to another. For example, I’d imagine if they were to test impact force, they would do it in a way that takes out any variation of the amount of force applied, as well as how it is applied.
For example, I noticed when dropping the 53 lb square, viewers are unable to see how high you drop it from when testing your table, and tended to only drop it on its corner when doing so on the FB table.
Re-watching, I also noticed how the bottom of the cardboard boxes from the fireball table unboxing have dampness, and part of the pallet had come apart. This suggests it was left out in the rain at some point, potentially for a long duration of time, which also may indicate why the FB stickers were peeling (although I’m glad it did since it gave credence to potential affiliation with Chinese manufacture). I don’t know anyone who’d store a several thousand-dollar table package in a way that can take on water, but I’d be curious whether your table would encounter similar corrosion put in the same situation.
I see a lot wrong with this video, but I’ll still give it a thumbs up for bringing up the shortcomings with the FB table that undoubtedly help guide potential buyers. "
This was bound to happen. Rust could have been from all the time spent in a container.
I was surprised there was no oil coating or plastic to help seal it from rust.
These videos will always be Biased.
I think this is an interesting video. I really enjoyed a good comparison between two different products, even if the comparison is only leaning one sided. It helps the team and I look for ways to improve our product and provide a better tool for the user. I’m also happy the Siegmund sees fireball as a contender in the fixture table world that they would need to make a video like this.
I find it interesting that they were talking negative on cast iron. Siegmund uses cast-iron fixtures. The square that was used in the drop test is cast iron. Doesn’t that seem weird to slam on a material that they say in their descriptions of the tools as being “Heavy Duty design, High-Quality Material”?
Also they said that fireball uses a non standard hole size. This is also weird because Siegmund has 3 hole sizes that they use in their tables. 16,22, and 28
Witch one if these 3 is the standard? It’s pretty apparent they don’t know what the word standard means. Fireball uses one size for every table. This to me is what you call standard.
I also wished they would of compared the legs, table construction, fixture sizes and prices of everything. But for some reason they left these items out of the video.
The clamp comparison is silly. They used our basic clamp for the comparison test. Fireball has several clamp styles to choose from. It’s fairly obvious why they choose to use our basic clamp for the test. The Fireball clamp they used is 30 dollars vs Siegmund 69. Fireball has a clamp that has a removable foot. They should of used it for the comparison. It’s still cheaper at 48 dollars.
With that being said the rust issue is concerning. I’m unaware of customers receiving tables in this condition. If you have received a table like this please let us know. We’re investigating on our end when those tables were purchased and if they were neglected in some way to causing the rust. Regarding moving forward on our end we are taking extra procedures to ensure the tables won’t rust if stored for an extended period. But generally we haven’t seen a issue like this before.
We have our own testing videos coming out shortly that are more realistic and replicate real world scenarios. It’s no secret that both designs have positive and negatives. I still think the Fireball table checks of more positive boxes than negative. I look forward to sharing the new products coming out in the future that I really think you’ll like. Were trying to have something for everyone at a price that’s fair. I really like hearing your feedback, it helps us design and build better tools.
Jason
I just added the following comment to the Quantum comparison on youtube:
An interesting comparison of the two company’s tables, but as a Fireball customer, not consistent with my experience. I purchased the 60x30 heavy duty table which is no longer made and posted the following review on the Fireball site. I have now had the table and lots of Fireball tooling for about 18 months and continue to be extremely happy with my purchase. If I had received a rusty table like you show I would certainly have a very different opinion, but all of my purchases from Fireball have been both pleasant and trouble free.
Here is my original review posted in April 2023
The pallet and packages arrived in great shape, no obvious damage. There had been a minor repair to one corner of the pallet where a new “foot” had been screwed on. The wooden top of the crate and bubble wrap inside was very helpful in preventing the table from getting wet as I had to work in drizzle to put the legs on.
Getting the table off the pallet is a bit challenging. Some suggestions would be helpful to have in advance of delivery: Have a long (say 5-6") partially threaded 3/4" socket head screw which allows the unthreaded portion to bear against the table holes, leaving enough exposed for hooks or straps. A large washer to prevent hook or strap from slipping off is also helpful. Insert the SHCS in the middle of one end side and lift the table enough to get a 2x4 underneath, then repeat on the other end so that there is room to either feed straps or forks underneath the table. Have something to act as a safety while installing the legs, I used a section of cribbing timber about the length of the legs. Have a 17mm hex on hand to tighten the SHCS for the legs.
I got the fixed legs with casters and the stout legs and casters are deluxe. The casters are large enough and compliant enough that I was able to roll the table over a 1/4" threshold with no issues. Being able to reposition the table easily is extremely valuable in a small shop. With the casters locked the table is very solid.
The quality of the table and clamping kit #3 is outstanding. I would say the table itself is nearly a work of art. The whole team at Fireball deserve thanks and credit for producing such a fine product. The effort that went into packing everything well so that it arrived in excellent condition is also remarkable.
The one somewhat sour note was discovering that the table was not made in the US. To be clear, I never saw a claim that it was; I made an assumption based on the Fireball squares that I’d purchased in the past. I would encourage Fireball to provide country of origin on the website. The pride in design, execution and delivery is evident and the result is worth the cost. It is sad that a table like this cannot be made for this price in the US, but I think it should be noted that the Asian factories are capable of producing very high quality product when the customers are willing to pay for it. I can imagine that Fireball put a great deal of time and effort into finding the right foundry and factory to produce this table and the quality of the product I received bears this out. I think that it is on par with the other US and European industrial machines I am familiar with.
The videos on the testing of other tables, design of the Fireball tables, and choices that went into the clamping system were very helpful in making my purchasing decision. Although I’ve only just received mine, I can see that the entire system is very well thought out. In a world where standards are already set it takes courage to come up with a new design and bring it to market. Well done!
Why didn’t you address the stronghand tools labeling under the fireball tools stickers?
It shouldn’t matter if some of your products are manufactured overseas as long as they are of sufficient quality, the fireball tools vise is a prime example of this. The quality control systems that you’ve also shown in some of your videos are also telling for the level of quality that you want the products that you sell to have. I’m also not suggesting that you breakdown all your business relationships or suppliers, but I do feel this is an important thing to address.
When the market sees your company as a contender to their product offering, you’re obviously doing something right.
This “review” is obviously bias and only focused on what you see. Take us under the tables, compare the adjustable leg design. How well does each table roll across a dirty/rough shop floor? What’s the weight of each table assembled?
I will agree with others, something is up with table tops being rusty. I’ve left my dragon scale coated squares out in the weather and rain a few times. They look nothing like what this video showed.
Ya know upon watching the video a second time I noticed something possibly suspicious.
The cardboard box that the dragon wagon tabletop is in seems way too worn and tattered to be a fresh order and it seems to have already been opened (no packing tape or metal straps on that individual box).
I know he cut those metal straps that were around all the boxes, but they could have opened it, done some stuff to compromise the tabletop and then put new metal straps around it again.
To be clear, I haven’t bought a fireball table myself yet (I want one but I’m still saving up. Almost there ha) so I don’t know how they’re packed and shipped exactly. Maybe someone else who knows about that can comment.
Also, it just so happens that BOTH tables that they ordered (2 different models with different finishes, mind you) have rust on them? What are the odds of that?
Wasn’t there an issue with the dragon scale on early batches of the dragon wagons? Just from lurking in here it seemed like everyone who mentioned it was taken care of. *For what it’s worth my small dragon wagon table has stood up to some serious abuse
This video from sigmund looks like a total hit job on fireball they are probably loosing buisness to fireball. First Ill point out that all the tests fireball has done so far have been scientific and non human test. Also when I got my fireball table it came metal banded not plastic like in the video, and it came with plastic and an oil soaked paper to stop any rust from forming and the table was covered in oil. They clearly unboxed the fireball tables and let them rust because in the unboxing you would see the oil paper and its not in either box. I could see q table getting missed but two in the same order, I doubt it. That and if they are uncrating competitors tables and recrating them they might have gotten a stronghand table and put the box on the fireball. Because you see the stickers that were suposedly covering the stronghand labe are the old fireball branding when they still had the megasquare logo that they havent used since the the hartail came out and they changed to the dragon logo.
Also like Jason pointed out they are not doing apples to apples comparisons on their tool vs fireballs.
Overall I think this is done in very poor taste on Sigmunds part I think they are strait up lying to people to discredit fireball because they make a worse product but charge the same price. I had one of Sigmunds 800x400 28mm tables but im glad I sold it after I got my fireball table. They stick usa flags all over it even though it was made in germany. They definitely wont be getting anymore buisness from me. This was strait up lies to try and diswaude customers from buying fireball. I will also comend Jason for having sutch a positve response to something with sutch bad intentions.
I think Jason’s comments are why Fireball is so good. They are not afraid to confront a “deficiency” or unexpected problem and look at what it takes to make a better product.
Update:
The Fireball team tracked down the sale and delivery date of the shipment. The tables were sold and shipped May 2024, the video was released on youtube in November 2024. So it looks like the table was stored for sometime. Was it neglected during storage? It’s also suspicious that the wax paper wasn’t on the table along with the thick oil goo that is applied after table QC. What happend to them? I’m sure will never know but I bet they are on the boat to Germany or wherever for dissection and inspection. I’m sure it won’t be long before Siegmund comes out with a cast iron table or a 3/4 hole variation.
I do think they should make a 3/4 hole system and ditch the weird sizes that they have now. It will truly be helpful for every manufacture to pick one size hole. It’s really hard to make tooling for every table system. Think about it, These are the current table systems that I know of.
5/8 2"x2" USA
3/4 2"x2" USA
3/4 50mm x 50mm EU
16mm 2"x2" USA
16mm 50mm x 50mm USA, EU
22mm x 100mm x 100mm USA, EU
28mm x 100mm x 100mm USA, EU
28mm X 4"x4" USA
I vote we just pick a hole size and make a Imperial and a metric standard.
Had a feeling it was something like this. I said in a previous comment that the odds that both tables that they ordered happened to be rusty are pretty darn low. Especially when they’re different models with different finishes.
The guy even made a point to say that the HD table was “dry as a bone” out of the box which also seemed odd to me. And now you’re saying that you put oil and wax paper on every table which makes more sense.
Like you said, we’ll probably never know for sure ha.
I bet they pulled the tables out of the box, cleaned and checked them out, then put them back in the box and stored them for a future video. This seems like the most realistic scenario. The Dragon Wagon has me stumped though. I don’t think the table rusted, it looks like the rust came from something else or was added.
On a positive note, We have added a extra shipping inspection check before the tables leave the warehouse to ensure everyone gets a rust free table.
Jason, you note about the rust coming from something else is exactly what I thought after watching the video again a few days later. An item was set on the table or the oil was cleaned off and something spilt on the surface.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is a duck.
I finds this interesting
Valtra who appears to be the OEM / contract manufacture of Fireball also appears to have been Siegmund Importer and distributor in the past, also owner of Strong Hand. (my assumption based on CA gov corporate records and US customs import records, correct me if wrong)
I will say I have had QC issues with Fireball in the past, but they went above and beyond to solve them, and I’m a happy owner of many tables and fixtures.
I think Fireball has gotten a handle on the QC issues with contract manufacture, this video may represent a time before this.
Quantum needs to sell tables and fixtures, that is their only job, they don’t design, invent or build any products.
Jason / Fireball is basically an inventor, prototype and tool designer, using contract manufacturing to make the products he creates.
also provides educational and entertaining videos, and I’m happy to support their endeavors buying Fireball knowing there might be a bump in the road, but I have confidence they will make it right.
In re to China claim my understanding is all the tables are from overseas, a US cast table I don’t think any of us could afford.
some squares and parts are made in USA, the rest are overseas.
It would be nice if country of origin was a bit more visible.
