I personally feel the GD&T in your drawing left a lot to interpretation. I think some more instruction or an expert in GD&T could be helpful for even more informed drawings. Maybe a quality control engineer interview for an even more informed inspection method? Also why don’t your tables have 1776 holes? MERICA!!
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What was missing from the drawing that would of changed the outcome? The shops have a phone they can always call the customer if something isn’t clear. They also reviewed the drawing right in front of me. Its pretty clear that its a simple 4 sided box that needs to be square, flat and to size.
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what would be the return on investment for such a table setup? Does anyone care if your welding is that accurate. The companies you tested are in business in spite of the fact they could not do what you asked.
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I have worked in two machine shops and neither one would have let that level of work out the door.
For what you paid I would expect it done correctly.
I would give the shops a chance to correct their work, or give you your money back.
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The expectation that both parts would be the same because of the “TWO FRAMES” note was incorrect. Drawing dimensions only apply one item as shown. It is not a requirement, nor is it realistic to assume that individual, acceptable, assemblies will have the same dimensions. All that is required is that the dimensions for a single frame be met, separately for each frame.
If you want the two frames to match you must first establish by how much. If you look closely enough (measure, in other words), there will always be variations; you have to decide how much your design can tolerate. Once you have limits, you need to either change your drawing to show that there are two frames in a matched set and show the allow variation there (safest and best), or include the requirements in your purchase order (risky, because the shop guys may not see the order paperwork and may not know that matching applies.
I wouldn’t fault the shop for the rust or finish of the tubing if you didn’t specify the material, let alone the material specification, finish grade, condition at delivery, and so on. No specified requirement = it’s not rejectable.
Finally, it’s not fair to judge the flatness of the frame when it’s sitting on the face with unground welds. My guess is that you did not specify the final weld condition, so a bead at one corner could cause a reject even if the tubes and the other three welds were in a perfect plane.
The fixturing worked better than I thought it would. Did you have to disassemble the stop to get the frame out?
KL
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Hey Fireball,
I love how you have showcased precision with your tables and setups. Recently Ben over at UnchartedX has been using precision measuring tools to investigate the origin of some ancient artifacts. He has taken them to an aerospace machine tool shop and had them measure + scan the vase and have come up with some seriously precise measurements and relationships to the artifacts geometry after loading into CAD for measurements. I would love to see a video or hear your thoughts on what it would take to replicate these objects today. Maybe see if you could be able to replicate a perfect version of it. i think it would be a really cool content piece, regardless i would like to hear what you think about the vids below!
Cheers,
Ranger
interestingly, these objects were from the earliest dynasties and are not found therafter. Supposedly these are from at least 6,000 years ago.
(i could only post one link because im a new user, there are two more follow up videos that he has made since that one with a digital STL file available for download.)
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You gave them a detailed drawing and they couldnt follow directions let alone meet the tolerances. Get a refund!
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I wasn’t surprised at all. First thing I did when I started welding 7 years ago was to buy a Tab-N-Slot welding table. Then I bought a TIG and discovered it’s was going to take years to make good enough welds. So I bought a MIG, and my first product has been great: Welded Stand For PM1340 Lathe | Flickr
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Dude! Excellent video. It’s great to educate people who aren’t informed. I love the fixture table because it lends precision and repeatability.
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If the situation were turned around would you want the customer to show you that the product they produced did not meet the specifications provided? If you don’t check your work to make sure that it meets specs then you are not professional. This is the best demonstration of the value of having a quality fixture table. If you can’t afford the most basic tools then you might want to find another line of work.
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Was he expecting the two part to be exactly the same? It only seems like he expected both the conform to the same specifications. I think the point of ordering two was to demonstrate that not only can the fixtures help with getting good results, they help with getting repeatable good results.
They were not of the required dimensions separately either so the fails still stand.
That is simply wrong. Two out of the three were ground on both sides so there is no unground side. For the one that was ground on one and and unground on the other as specified, it was sitting on the ground face. You can clearly see the welds on top at 10:00 in the video.
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Im really not surprised. Cutting precise miters is the first challenge. Keeping our Ellis saw calibrated was a constant battle. Every shop i have worked at had warped tables. You have to get pretty creative if you care enough or have the time get some kind of precision out of warped tables. The shop owners i personally have worked for could not justify buying the nice fixture tables. Me on the other hand i do see the value in fixture tables. Not wasting time trying to shim your parts flat.
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My experience as a welder fabricator is short but my experience with arrogance, stubbornness and unwillingness to try new things or to change anything is almost as old as I can remember. People frequently confuse years of work with practical experience. Doing the same thing for 3 decades does not amount as experience, refusing to try new methods or technology doesn’t amount as experience. Although I’m the least experienced in the shop in time I’m the most experienced in variety. Although we mostly make warehouse structures we do some smaller jobs the require more precision and I mentioned several times a fixture table and was met with, : that’s bullshit, I don’t need that crap etc but in French. They are great people and very competent in what they do but they refuse to change and it’s really hard for them to adapt to new challenges. Don’t get me wrong I make loads of mistakes but I’m rapidly growing over what the workshop can offer
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Regardless of the table debate some of these guys still didnt follow directions though. The obvious ones, like grinding both sides. My first question after looking at the prints would be what material? Not lets make this out of aluminum and charge expensive process. IDK maybe i should stop complaining about other peoples shops and start my own.
They didn’t meet the specs. You can return the items and ask for a refund, period. I would ask them to see what their setups were however. I doubt the garage welder can justify a 12k fixture table, but the other two shops should absolutely have several in their setups. I would give them specific measurements of what they failed on as well.
The drawing made the requirements clear - except for material. On that I am astounded that none of the shops called to ask about what is a fundamental requirement (or maybe a couple of them did?). The tolerance was very reasonable and allowed for a suitable amount of shrinkage. Even then, being carbon steel, I’d have added 1/32" to the length of the tubes when cutting them - maybe a touch less since over length is not an option on the finished part - and the frame would have been almost dead on.
I am not surprised at the outcome. The term “pro welder” in the context of this thread and the video is essentially “someone who welds things and charges money for them”. That is not unreasonable. However, since I work in an ASME shop (not doing the welding I hasten to add, but the up front engineering), I tend to further refine the definition to “a pro welder is trained and judged against real standards such as those laid out by the AWS and ASME boiler / pressure vessel code section IX” (and many others besides).
It’s my experience that small welding shops are incredibly varied in the quality of work they provide. Those that do use flat fixture tables and such AND make a point of achieving what the customer asked for get a reputation for quality work and can build on that. The others stay as basic repair shops. I’m a hobbyist and I know I can do better than the 3 shops in the video - even with a non flat fixture table. But then again I do analyze drawings as part of my job so I’m used to thinking through tolerance and drawing requirements. In my world you don’t get to deliver something that does not meet the drawing.
Sorry - TL;DR, but that’s an answer from a professional supplier perspective.
I’m curious as to what that weldment would cost my company to make. I may go and make a quote for it just to see. I’ll report back.
That fireball tools weld table is phenomenal. I absolutely would buy one in a heartbeat if I was actually building things for money - as it is I make do with a lightweight one (which isn’t flat), and straighten things I make if I have to. The ROI on a table like that because of customer satisfaction and not having to rework a lot of projects would be short. In order to get repeatable and accurate parts setup is key.
Sorry - long reply. I signed up just to provide this reply, so wanted to make it worthwhile. Cheers.
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OK - I just worked up a quote for these frames as built by the company I work for. $605 each, which includes someone to do some CAD to make shop drawings, the material (with traceable heat numbers supplied), welding performed by an ASME section IX qualified welder and an actual inspection performed by dedicated inspectors. Lead time would be 3 weeks - we are a $100 million per year fabrication facility.
Make of that what you will. Were the $600 frames $600 each or for the pair?
I think you should keep going back until they give you what you asked for, see if they’re even capable of the task!
I’m not that surprised that your editor did a better job by using better tools. My biggest welding project so far was a table for my sewing machine this year and though I’m a beginner and shit welder, I’m fortunate enough to use someones very big, heavy and expensive table for this. It turned out perfect, doesn’t wobble at all and the only mishap was a single piece of short pipe that was 1cm too short because I used 20mm and 30mm stock for the table at different places. On the other hand, a much more simple wall shelf that I welded without that table needed some force afterwards (by mean of a hydraulic lift) after I already powder coated it to have both level parallel. Both shelf and paint survived this force majore.
I’m actually thinking about my next project on that massive table to be a small table so my welds at home turn out better in future. Schweißtisch für 50€ selber bauen mit Profifunktionen! 2022 - YouTube
@Stuarts_Shed The pair