I actually have a pretty precise table in terms of hole placement and hole sizing. All of the holes in mine are 2" on center and are reamed to .625" +.0004. The surface is not as relatively flat as a machined cast iron surface would be and mine is technically more flexible, but I am using it on a small farm for any old project including rebuilding engines, fabricating parts of various kinds, etc. My table is great for what I need it for and I absolutely love that Fireball offers tooling for it!
Iâve read other responses and many have touched on my concerns, but Iâll state them my own way:
Weight and logistics of getting it to me! Iâd love to have a table like the 8+ footer, but I donât have the equipment to get a table like that into where my home is located safely and I donât know of a delivery company that would be able to get it done for a price I could afford. Not to mention, I sometimes need to move things around at my place and I donât know how feasible it would be to move something that large made of cast iron.
3/4" holes instead of .625" holes was actually one of the biggest reasons I didnât go with a Fireball table. I think theyâre awesome in theory, but I likely wouldâve thought harder about a .625" table since itâs industry standard. From my perspective the proprietary ecosystem doesnât give me any benefits and Iâd rather have the option of finding all kinds of random 5/8" fixtures others are likely to invent and offer in the future. Iâm not mentioning 16mm since Iâm in the US, but if I was in Europe Iâd likely only be interested in 16mm/50mm tables.
I saw the latest video for the fixture drill jig and that sent me down a rabbit hole of looking for locally available tables. I came across this BEAST on eBay that is SUPER cool (Cast iron welding table w/ 2" top | eBay) and Iâm kicking around the idea of going to go pick it up. Thatâs a hell of a roadtrip though, all the way up in Canada. I donât have a truck that is capable of pulling the trailer youâd have to put that on, but I got friends that do. Also, there is a machine shop on the drive back that said they have a surface grinder that can accommodate a piece that large and get the +/- .002" flatness, because sheâs probably had a rough life and is due for a makeover haha.
As a hobbyist, two things have stopped me - space and cost. After watching Jasonâs videos about designing the fixture table, and then the 1st video he did showing 3 different fab shops and how un-flat and out of square the results were, I was convinced a fixture table would drastically improve my projects. But $4600 for a moveable table - before any fixtures were involved was way beyond my budget. Fabricating is only one of my hobbies, and many of my projects are to help with other hobbies - like (fishing) rod racks.
My workshop is a one car garage, that is also used for woodworking, and storage. Itâs too small to fit my truck even if it were empty of everything else. So my current table (and whatever I eventually replace it with) will have to be on wheels.
The 4.5â x 2.5â Heavy Duty table with wheels, and a few fixtures - shipped to the Eastcoast would easily be pushing 6k. Siegmund makes a 3â x 4â table thatâs super hard, comparably flat and includes 28 fixtures and a maintenance kit for just about $4900 with casters. At 1/2" thick, itâs presumably not as rigid as the 1" thick FB HD fixture table. At 486lbs, Siegmundâs table is probably about half the weight of the FA75-TCG5430-C1. Siegmundâs warehouse is in Raleigh - about 4hrs from me, which makes pickup a possibility. Siegmundâs table has 5/8" holes, which as others have stated has more fixture manufacturer options.
The introduction of the Dragon Wagon definitely points me back to Fireball Tools. I really like the fixtures FB has designed, and the website clearly shows an availability bias towards the 3/4" series. Right now, the site is showing me I can order a 54" x 30" Dragon Wagon (that has casters) and Table Kit 2 shipped to VA for $4924. That Table Kit 2 includes MUCH more stuff than Siegmundâs, and honestly, as soon as I saw the shim kit, I was in!
So the last thing stopping me from adding 5k to my credit card debt are the reports of items missing from orders in the forum. The âGoodbye Fireball Toolsâ thread showed that MadMachinist had a lot of trouble with his order fulfillment. LAStevens has another thread talking about the 20K heâs spent with FB in 45 days and isnât getting replies to about his missing items. If I buy (1) fixture table, and a (53) piece kit from FB in Spokane, WA, and only 48 of those pieces show upâŚwhat do I do? I could drive to Siegmund, see the package, inspect it before I load it onto my truck and drive it home with 100% confidence I got exactly what I paid for.
While I cannot speak to the customer service issues that have been mentioned, I can say that my own ordering and customer service experiences with Fireball has been excellent over several orders including a 30x60 table, fixtures, squares and clamps. My e-mails and phone calls were always answered and if there was a glitch in an order it was resolved quickly and to my satisfaction. I wonât hesitate to order more from them as my needs and budget allow.
@Jef Yes the Dragon wagon was made for your exact application. The idea came from customers just like yourself. We want to offer you the best bang for the buck.
This forum was created to hear feedback good or bad, we truly want everyone to be happy, unfortunately sometimes things happen. We always try to make it right or find the best way to communicate.
To be fair other companies donât have a public forum/comments for all to see. I hope that you can see that we want you to have the best experience possible. Were here to answer questions and provide FREE education on welding/fabrication/fixturing. If you have any questions please feel free to ask.
Jason
Fireball shipped me 2 monster squares, a shim kit, a 3 axis square, and 2ea 123 blocks- for $20 bucks. This stuff came FedEx and inside of 3 days! I donât know how he does it, perhaps the shipping is offset in the price of the tooling, or he has some special arrangement, but Iâve never had a better experience. When I order from Hossfeld, the shipping is 1/3 of the cost of the tooling!
Your concerns are valid tho- thatâs a lot of money- but where else can you chat with the owner of the company when parts of your order are missing? Because this is a forum, I think he has a vested interest in making sure youâre happy. (seriously, 20 bucks âŚhow do you do that lol)
I have been a spectator for a few years now but did not participate. I really enjoy Jasonâs videos. Especially the vice testing videos. I got all excited when I saw 15% off. Opened an account and was ready to pull the trigger on a 3/4" 4.5 X 6.5 with a bunch of tooling (about $12K and change), when I noticed the âexcept forâ note at the bottom of the page. I own a fairly good sized industrial transmission rebuild facility with a full welding and machine shop capabilities. We build most all of our own testing fixtures and tooling for the Frac Units. I really donât want to give the business to the Chinese but that Kuvoso table looks like a player. The videos I have seen showed they should be considered at the very least. We prefer to keep the business state side though. Thanks, THW
What does a guy do when he has 4 matching 4 x 8 cast iron platens. Iâve got some fireball fixtures to slide drill bushings in for drilling a perfect center for the 3/4 x 1 annular cutter pilot. Iâve got a lot of holes to make. Iâm looking super hard at the CSUnitek auto feed mag drill. Very cool load sensing features. Light, small, 1.5 capacity . 2 grand. housemates makes the best counter bore this. 82 degree with carbide inserts and 3/4 pilots. I canât think of a manually accurate method. Please give me feedback. Also a perfect configuration you might want.
Aside from the common cost & space issues, Iâm still unclear on how limiting a smaller 2X3 ish table will be for a hobbyist who probably wonât be building anything larger than a coffee table frame.
Space isnât the problem. Plenty of room especially for quality tools. Iâld say the cost , not that it isnât absolutely worth it, I just canât justify it with the work I do. And while a small one is more affordable I donât think it fits my needs either. The crazy good Accuracy is something I might grow into but donât know that I need it that tight! I really want the Ability the lay out with the disturbs though. Thatâs why after much deliberation, ( see my other post ) Iâve decided to use that plate I have and make my own. Iâm on the email list for the kit with the jig, and Iâve ordered my Weldon x Mt3 chuck, a few cutters and a jug of WD-40 ! If works out Iâll be loading up on fixtures!
If you love your money, and cutting tools, snag a jug of Tap Magic for drilling those holes. Itâs incredibly good and will definitely extend the life of your annular cutter.
To answer this question, first thing stopping me is the size that I would need to make the purchase worth it. I would need 5 of the 2x3 dragon wagons to be able to build my most common fabrications. I build a lot of trailer ramps and safety ladders 6â usually up to 9â long or more. I handle them on a 5x3 table now but have a lot of overhang or build custom jigs. A fixture table thatâs too small would be kinda useless as a fixture table with those builds. So I keep grinding away with my system till I can afford/justify a better system which may be awhile. Second thing stopping me is I do more repair work and things where Iâm smashing things apart with a hammer on top of my welding table. If I had a bigger shop I could have both table systems but if I can only have one Iâd rather not have to smash things on a $10k table system. Unless someone wanted to send me one to test itâs durability. Iâd have no problem smashing a table someone else paid for. In the mean time Iâll continue smashing my scrap built table. I did get the marauder though which is really making me rethink my life.
Have you ever thought about getting the large fixture table you need but put a sacrificial surface over the top like a 14 gauge sheet metal? Then pull it off for the precision stuff?
I have considered that. Iâm still not sure if that would help much. (At least for me) I once had a mostly flat table at one time. I had to build up and hardface a vibratory plow blade from ditch witchâs bigger quad track machine. I had to toss it around by hand so I wasnât that gentle. Thatâs more so the level of damage Iâm talking about.
That one video they dropped a car from a crane for no reason other than to film it hitting the table. I do stuff like that but in real situations for various reasons.
Somebody that watches my YouTube channel once described me as âitâs like playing golf with a sledge hammerâ which sums it up but I donât even film most of what I do. Especially not the really destructive stuff.
I would need to pay off some other stuff to get a table as big as I need anyway. Iâve thought about just getting a cheaper 2x3 from like prime weld or someone to start with and try to come up with some smaller stuff to build but it would kinda be in the way. Thatâs how I ended up with the marauder. If I donât need it I can get it out of the way easier.
I am a retired architect and have been hobby welding for over 25 years. Now that I am retired all I want to do is weld and make stuff, mostly furniture and art projects. Never had a fixture table so I got a weld flat 3/16âx 36x48 because of the size and cost. I will never recoup the cost of my equipment and am ok with that. I would love to get a dragon wagon but canât justify the cost. If I can sell my stuff for cost I am happy.
I love the videos and your fixtures. I just bought my first batch of fixtures and am excited to use them. Because of the thinness of my table I am having to use some washers to get the tacking bolts to work. I am concerned that the the fence pin blocks and stop pins wiggle when inserted into the 16mm holes. Is this because my table is thin? Anyway, looking forward to using the fixtures and I am sure I will be buying more as needed.
Donât tell my wife how much Iâm spending.
Cheers
The fence blocks wiggle because 16mm is a tad larger than 5/8 and yes a thin table is also not helpful. But any fixture table is better than none. Sweet spider webs!
I am a hobby fabricator trying to put together a decent shop for retirement fun. My background is Electrical Engineering and Iâve always been curious about metal fabrication and machining.
I was so tired of using my table saw and other not so flat surfaces to weld. Clampled things down the best I could but that grew old because I could never get it âjust rightâ and repeatable.
I finally pulled the funds together and got the larger Dragon Wagon and the mid-tier fixture set.
Took delivery today and I am impressed by the finish of the product. Looking forward to using everything. The size / price / precision point is perfect for me.
Can I justify the cost? Not from a purely financial standpoint but from a âlearning by doingâ standpoint, it is certainly justifiable. I kept my eye on other manufacturerâs fixture tables and the tab and slot self-assembled tables but never felt they met my requirements for smaller footprint, budget and precision all-in-one as the Dragon Wagon series does. Having a precision tool as one of the crown jewels of my shop will be a thrill after making do for so many yearsâŚ
Beautiful product - Jasonâs work and product are an inspiration. Cry once, buy once - no regrets at all with this purchase!
